Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
To avoid misunderstandings: The MC punch in an oval or rectangular with rounded corners shield is Maria Vasiljevan Semenova/Semyonova 1896-1917, not Maria Ivanovna Sokolova 1886-1908. Her punch has a rectangular shield with sharp corners. The font differs also compared to Semenova's font.
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
Dear Qrt.S thank you for the explanation, but be willing, I just asked about this old post and about a topic that interests me a lot, I didn't want to "burden" you with my requestQrt.S wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 2:26 pm To avoid misunderstandings: The MC punch in an oval or rectangular with rounded corners shield is Maria Vasiljevan Semenova/Semyonova 1896-1917, not Maria Ivanovna Sokolova 1886-1908. Her punch has a rectangular shield with sharp corners. The font differs also compared to Semenova's font.
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
#GiulyF
Don't worry no problem, you didn't. Hopefully I made my point and now you know the meaning of Russian female silver marks. A Russian female silver punch seems to always (more or less) cause "confusion and misunderstandings"! Fell free to ask more if needed! The forum is meant to answer questions.
Moreover, take a look at old photos from workshops in Russia. There are men only on the photos! You might see a woman too, but she is most likely the cleaner, chambermaid, somebody's wife visiting or some master's children playing around because the head master's abode was sometimes situated close to his workshop.
Have a nice day
Don't worry no problem, you didn't. Hopefully I made my point and now you know the meaning of Russian female silver marks. A Russian female silver punch seems to always (more or less) cause "confusion and misunderstandings"! Fell free to ask more if needed! The forum is meant to answer questions.
Moreover, take a look at old photos from workshops in Russia. There are men only on the photos! You might see a woman too, but she is most likely the cleaner, chambermaid, somebody's wife visiting or some master's children playing around because the head master's abode was sometimes situated close to his workshop.
Have a nice day
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
I do not understand very well what difference it makes whether a woman worked in her workshop herself or not. How is anyone going to prove it? Any woman from about the middle of the 19th century could open her own workshop. Whether she was a silversmith or not was not a problem. And we must remember that it was very rare when only one person completely made a silver product. There was a division of labor and everyone did their part of the work.
Many male silversmiths did not work themselves in their workshops either. For example, Faberge. Silversmith "ИЕЗ" Zakhoder recalled that when the business went well, he began to observe and control only. In the 1890s, 45 people worked in Marshak's workshop, of which 8 were women. Do you think they were all cleaners? Maybe... That means it was very clean in the workshop.
P.S. Maria Semyonova became the head of the silver workshop after her father's death in 1892.
Many male silversmiths did not work themselves in their workshops either. For example, Faberge. Silversmith "ИЕЗ" Zakhoder recalled that when the business went well, he began to observe and control only. In the 1890s, 45 people worked in Marshak's workshop, of which 8 were women. Do you think they were all cleaners? Maybe... That means it was very clean in the workshop.
P.S. Maria Semyonova became the head of the silver workshop after her father's death in 1892.
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
@Mart
It is not a question of understanding or "difference" but the "habit" and known history of those days. Women did not "work", their place was at home taking care of the family and giving birth to children and rise them as I wrote earlier. No proves are needed, it is called known history. In addition, as I also requested, present one single official document from the guild that shows that a woman had been approved by the guild as a registered master/goldsmith. You cannot do it, because there is no such documentation.
Please don't overdo it, it was not particularly clean in the workshops. As also mentioned earlier workshops could be MANAGED by a woman, BUT SHE WAS NOT A MASTER, for earlier mentioned reasons.
No, Carl Fabergé did not work as a master. It is a known fact. This is also a much discussed topic. Fabergé's punch is actually a trade mark only irrespective of the fact that CF was a skilled and approved master/goldsmith. He managed the company only with success. Moreover, he did not allow anybody else master except Julius Rappoport, Antti/Anders Nevalainen, the First Artel (ICA) and the Väkevä family to punch their punch together with Fabergé's punch, but this is another story. Don't mix it with this topic regarding non-existing female masters.
Yes, often many workers (apprentices, journeymen...) took some times part in creating an object, but only the registered master could use his punch. Therefore it might look like he made it, sometimes he could have, but not always, what he did was actually approve it by his punch.
How do you know that 8 women worked in Marshak's workshop, prove it :-)))
Actually Maria Vasilyevna Semyonova took over the business in 1896 and continued with it to 1917 but never mind that. It has nothing to do with this topic.
It is not a question of understanding or "difference" but the "habit" and known history of those days. Women did not "work", their place was at home taking care of the family and giving birth to children and rise them as I wrote earlier. No proves are needed, it is called known history. In addition, as I also requested, present one single official document from the guild that shows that a woman had been approved by the guild as a registered master/goldsmith. You cannot do it, because there is no such documentation.
Please don't overdo it, it was not particularly clean in the workshops. As also mentioned earlier workshops could be MANAGED by a woman, BUT SHE WAS NOT A MASTER, for earlier mentioned reasons.
No, Carl Fabergé did not work as a master. It is a known fact. This is also a much discussed topic. Fabergé's punch is actually a trade mark only irrespective of the fact that CF was a skilled and approved master/goldsmith. He managed the company only with success. Moreover, he did not allow anybody else master except Julius Rappoport, Antti/Anders Nevalainen, the First Artel (ICA) and the Väkevä family to punch their punch together with Fabergé's punch, but this is another story. Don't mix it with this topic regarding non-existing female masters.
Yes, often many workers (apprentices, journeymen...) took some times part in creating an object, but only the registered master could use his punch. Therefore it might look like he made it, sometimes he could have, but not always, what he did was actually approve it by his punch.
How do you know that 8 women worked in Marshak's workshop, prove it :-)))
Actually Maria Vasilyevna Semyonova took over the business in 1896 and continued with it to 1917 but never mind that. It has nothing to do with this topic.
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
Dear Mart :-) :-) :-) aahahah I think that your intervention will reopen a dispute, I would just like to learn more from those who undoubtedly know more than me, but on this point there are two diametrically opposed positions. you, a Russian (I think I understand) declare that the role of women in mid-19th century Russia was not so marginal and domestic as one thinks, QRt.S on the other hand, has a more severe and "philistine vision" of female world ....so how can I adjust between this two assertions?Mart wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 7:07 am I do not understand very well what difference it makes whether a woman worked in her workshop herself or not. How is anyone going to prove it? Any woman from about the middle of the 19th century could open her own workshop. Whether she was a silversmith or not was not a problem. And we must remember that it was very rare when only one person completely made a silver product. There was a division of labor and everyone did their part of the work.
Many male silversmiths did not work themselves in their workshops either. For example, Faberge. Silversmith "ИЕЗ" Zakhoder recalled that when the business went well, he began to observe and control only. In the 1890s, 45 people worked in Marshak's workshop, of which 8 were women. Do you think they were all cleaners? Maybe... That means it was very clean in the workshop.
P.S. Maria Semyonova became the head of the silver workshop after her father's death in 1892.
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
То Qrt.S:
We are moving in circles))) Earlier I already answered some of your questions on this forum. There are many women who were members of the society of silversmiths. They could be silversmiths themselves or just members of their families. It is almost impossible to verify this. Can you prove that the owners of the workshops of Krotkovа, Utkinа, Semenovа did not work there themselves? Have you read all the archives of the crafts council? What are you linking to? If you are confident in this, as well as in the fact that Maria Semenova began to work independently only from 1896, then you are defeated in everything. What are your arguments other than unverified sources? Let's make a bet. If Vasily Semyonov died in 1892, then you will organize a fishing trip for me for a month.)))
P.S. You remembered the workshop of Stefan Wyakeva in St. Petersburg. This was indeed one of the dirtiest and most unsettled silver workshops in Russia.
We are moving in circles))) Earlier I already answered some of your questions on this forum. There are many women who were members of the society of silversmiths. They could be silversmiths themselves or just members of their families. It is almost impossible to verify this. Can you prove that the owners of the workshops of Krotkovа, Utkinа, Semenovа did not work there themselves? Have you read all the archives of the crafts council? What are you linking to? If you are confident in this, as well as in the fact that Maria Semenova began to work independently only from 1896, then you are defeated in everything. What are your arguments other than unverified sources? Let's make a bet. If Vasily Semyonov died in 1892, then you will organize a fishing trip for me for a month.)))
P.S. You remembered the workshop of Stefan Wyakeva in St. Petersburg. This was indeed one of the dirtiest and most unsettled silver workshops in Russia.
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
To GiulyF:
Women in pre-revolutionary Russia could be members of the society of silversmiths and owners of silver workshops. At the moment, I have not studied their participation in the creation of silverware. When I look through the statistical documents, I can meet women in the workshops. True, not very often. And not just silver ones. In the second half of the 19th century, higher courses for women began to open in Russia ...
There are documents that women were the mistresses of silver workshops and at the same time were members of the society of silversmiths, but this does not mean that they worked with their own hands.
However, it takes special work in the archives to determine what their profession was. I cannot say that, for example, Maria Semenova worked herself, but I cannot say that she did not work with her own hands either.
I do not know what data my apponent refers to. Maybe he read some books or visited archives.
I wonder why you are so interested in this question?)))
Women in pre-revolutionary Russia could be members of the society of silversmiths and owners of silver workshops. At the moment, I have not studied their participation in the creation of silverware. When I look through the statistical documents, I can meet women in the workshops. True, not very often. And not just silver ones. In the second half of the 19th century, higher courses for women began to open in Russia ...
There are documents that women were the mistresses of silver workshops and at the same time were members of the society of silversmiths, but this does not mean that they worked with their own hands.
However, it takes special work in the archives to determine what their profession was. I cannot say that, for example, Maria Semenova worked herself, but I cannot say that she did not work with her own hands either.
I do not know what data my apponent refers to. Maybe he read some books or visited archives.
I wonder why you are so interested in this question?)))
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
@Mart,
No, we are not moving in circles. You are not accepting facts but presenting vague personal opinions and assumptions. I am presenting known accepted historical facts! Of course some women could be members in the respective society because they managed the inherited workshop, but did they appear in the meetings? Hardly, what do you think that the male members in this society for men would have taught having a woman in their meetings??? Besides, that is not at all not the point here, which is that did they make something? NO, they hardly did and if they had made something, it carried by guild the appointed MALE master's punch, so that's that!
In addition, in those days women couldn't hardly even work in the "dirty" workshops environment for earlier mentioned reasons. However, daughters' father, an official master, could have and probably sometimes also trained their daughters (that is known), but that didn't make them masters. That would have been completely outrages/chocking in those days.
Learn your history, you are not familiar with the history, my good man! I have study it, believe me!
No, we are not moving in circles. You are not accepting facts but presenting vague personal opinions and assumptions. I am presenting known accepted historical facts! Of course some women could be members in the respective society because they managed the inherited workshop, but did they appear in the meetings? Hardly, what do you think that the male members in this society for men would have taught having a woman in their meetings??? Besides, that is not at all not the point here, which is that did they make something? NO, they hardly did and if they had made something, it carried by guild the appointed MALE master's punch, so that's that!
In addition, in those days women couldn't hardly even work in the "dirty" workshops environment for earlier mentioned reasons. However, daughters' father, an official master, could have and probably sometimes also trained their daughters (that is known), but that didn't make them masters. That would have been completely outrages/chocking in those days.
Learn your history, you are not familiar with the history, my good man! I have study it, believe me!
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
Mart I I want to know and know the story and it's not enough for me to have heard or quote extrapolated from...all this intrigues me and fascinates me, especially when it comes to aspects that are little known and discussed but which actually concern/ed daily lifeMart wrote: ↑Thu Apr 06, 2023 9:56 am To GiulyF:
Women in pre-revolutionary Russia could be members of the society of silversmiths and owners of silver workshops. At the moment, I have not studied their participation in the creation of silverware. When I look through the statistical documents, I can meet women in the workshops. True, not very often. And not just silver ones. In the second half of the 19th century, higher courses for women began to open in Russia ...
There are documents that women were the mistresses of silver workshops and at the same time were members of the society of silversmiths, but this does not mean that they worked with their own hands.
However, it takes special work in the archives to determine what their profession was. I cannot say that, for example, Maria Semenova worked herself, but I cannot say that she did not work with her own hands either.
I do not know what data my apponent refers to. Maybe he read some books or visited archives.
I wonder why you are so interested in this question?)))
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
To Qrt.S
«…You are not accepting facts but presenting vague personal opinions and assumptions. I am presenting known accepted historical facts!.....
….Learn your history, you are not familiar with the history….»
What facts have you cited here? Other people's thoughts from outdated books? Only repeat the same words many times word for word. This is the first time I have come across a situation where a person so stubbornly does not want to get new knowledge, but holds on to the wall like a blind man. But I remember that once you presented interesting information at my request about Master Wiberg. And it was wonderful!
It's good that you didn't argue about the date of Semenov's death, they saved their money))) When I talk about Russian masters, I rely on data from old sources and archives, which I try to check many times.
Thanks for the history advice. I will start learning history today at 11.42 pm. I will try very hard, because learning new things is very useful!))) I hope I can turn to you for advice on my story in the most difficult cases. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to communicate with you, because I have to learn history. I wish you good luck!
«…You are not accepting facts but presenting vague personal opinions and assumptions. I am presenting known accepted historical facts!.....
….Learn your history, you are not familiar with the history….»
What facts have you cited here? Other people's thoughts from outdated books? Only repeat the same words many times word for word. This is the first time I have come across a situation where a person so stubbornly does not want to get new knowledge, but holds on to the wall like a blind man. But I remember that once you presented interesting information at my request about Master Wiberg. And it was wonderful!
It's good that you didn't argue about the date of Semenov's death, they saved their money))) When I talk about Russian masters, I rely on data from old sources and archives, which I try to check many times.
Thanks for the history advice. I will start learning history today at 11.42 pm. I will try very hard, because learning new things is very useful!))) I hope I can turn to you for advice on my story in the most difficult cases. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to communicate with you, because I have to learn history. I wish you good luck!
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
To GiulyF:
It's wonderful and I have the same))). If you have any questions, please ask and we will try to answer. Good luck!
It's wonderful and I have the same))). If you have any questions, please ask and we will try to answer. Good luck!
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
@Mart
Sorry Mart, but what facts have you presented? Female goldsmiths in imperial Russia, hahahhahaaa! You mostly present personal assumptions only. In addition, you have no knowledge of what sources I use, but by this time I know rather well what you use. You said you remember that I presented interesting information regarding Wiberg to you. Fine, but why didn't you find this easily accessible information yourself? The information I gave you should tell you something about my sources, does it? Unfortunately I have heavy doubts about that. Yes, learn your history. Moreover, I don't rely on good luck but on good reliable sources. Some of these are undoubtedly old but still mostly reliable.
End of this discussion as for me!
Sorry Mart, but what facts have you presented? Female goldsmiths in imperial Russia, hahahhahaaa! You mostly present personal assumptions only. In addition, you have no knowledge of what sources I use, but by this time I know rather well what you use. You said you remember that I presented interesting information regarding Wiberg to you. Fine, but why didn't you find this easily accessible information yourself? The information I gave you should tell you something about my sources, does it? Unfortunately I have heavy doubts about that. Yes, learn your history. Moreover, I don't rely on good luck but on good reliable sources. Some of these are undoubtedly old but still mostly reliable.
End of this discussion as for me!
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
"...End of this discussion as for me!..."
Thank you! This is a real gift from you! ...Anyway, I don't have time since I started studying history diligently, as you said.
Thank you! This is a real gift from you! ...Anyway, I don't have time since I started studying history diligently, as you said.
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Silverstone
- contributor
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:41 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
Dear members,
perhaps this discussion comes to an end?
In an interview Ulla Tillander-Godenhielm (the great-granddaughter of St. Petersburg goldsmith Alexander Tillander, a supplier to the Russian imperial court) who has been researching the oeuvre of the Russian jewelers for many years said:
„The only female workers were polishers.“
Source:
Podcast: Gem Pursuit, Alma Pihl, 04.07.2022, minute: 15:20 h
Kind regards
Silverstone
perhaps this discussion comes to an end?
In an interview Ulla Tillander-Godenhielm (the great-granddaughter of St. Petersburg goldsmith Alexander Tillander, a supplier to the Russian imperial court) who has been researching the oeuvre of the Russian jewelers for many years said:
„The only female workers were polishers.“
Source:
Podcast: Gem Pursuit, Alma Pihl, 04.07.2022, minute: 15:20 h
Kind regards
Silverstone
-
Silverstone
- contributor
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:41 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
Hi,
Ulla Tillander-Godenhielm referred in this podcast to the Fabergé workshop!
Silverstone
Ulla Tillander-Godenhielm referred in this podcast to the Fabergé workshop!
Silverstone
Re: Maria Sokolova - salt cellar
@Silverstone
The statement is valid for all workshops, not only Fabergé's.
The statement is valid for all workshops, not only Fabergé's.