Help with ID on this Russian mirror

[chelsea98]

Sorry, I did the images wrong in my previous post (should've tried a preview!!) and can't edit so can a mod please delete that post. Here's the correct images and all help is greatly appreciated. many thanks in advance.

[oel]

See; Mikhail Ovchinnikov
https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_makers_A_r.html

The mark of Mikhail Ovchinnikov first appeared in 1888 after the death of his father, the celebrated silversmith Pavel Ovchinnikov. Mikhail was the eldest son of Pavel Ovchinnikov and took over his father's firm, also continuing to use the previous marks of Pavel Ovchinnikov with the Imperial warrant.
https://mus-col.com/en/the-authors/10253/


Peter

[chelsea98]

That's wonderful. Many thanks indeed.

[AG2012]

Show us the close up of the coat of arms; it does not look Imperial Russian, could be custom made for royalty elsewhere, or Russian heraldic lower nobility.
How is it attacched to the frame ? There are too many pitfalls with this kind of ``royalty, imperial`` items.
Also, show us the back of the picture frame.
Regards

[Sasropakis]

The coat of arms could be those of the princely house of Dolgorukov although a more detailed picture would be better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dolgorukov

[Juke*]

Hi!

This type of Ovchinnikov mark with this assayers mark has been seen a few times and I have still reservations for the authenticity of it because of a few issues. It would be nice to get a full confirmation of this type of marking for example from an object with a known history and provenance.

Also as indicated by AG2012 these 'royalty' type of items are found on the markets with almost all to be fake. The clear reason for this is of course that they are lucrative and people fall for them with high prices. Also the coat of arms looks to me somehow strange and later so to have been later soldered to the mirror.

Without any provenance and better knowledge of the mirrors history I would be hestitating to have it confirmed authentic.

Regards,
Juke

[chelsea98]

Here's a close up of the arms as requested. It is indeed those of Dolgorukov and they were an ancient Princely family. Catherine Dolgorukova was the Mistress of Alexander II.

I don't have a photo of the rear of the mirror I'm afraid as it's not with me at the moment after I took these photos the other day. The arms however are not soldered to the mirror as there is some movement in them.

I understand that there are indeed a lot of fakes about these days, and a lot of new Russian silverware passed off as old, or just "in the manner of" with spurious marks.

I should point out however that this piece was purchased by my parents for their antique business well over 20 years ago now, and although there may well have been fakes at that time being made, there were far fewer than there are nowadays. My mother can't recall for certain, but it's possible that the mirror was purchased from Christies along with two very large trunks which previously belonged to Maria Maximillianovna Romanovskaya who's provenance was without doubt.

I've also confirmed that the arms depicted on the Wiki page actually have errors with regards to the direction the eagle faces, the angel and also the curtains overlapping one another. A correct depiction of the arms can be seen herehttps://picryl.com/media/coat-of-arms-o ... 798-364166

[Juke*]

Thank you for the additional photos of the coat of arms which look much better and of much higher quality than in the first picture. I can also add that engravings on the coat of arms are according to the correct color scheme as it should be. Thereby I have no questionings of its authentic and the same goes as well for the mirror itself.

It is great to hear that you also know the provenance of the mirror itself which gives a more impressive indication of authenticity. Keep that information within the mirror as it will always help you to ensure of its authenticity.

I was a little worried that the case would be different as even mentioned by you of the large fake item market circulating around regarding Russian silver and also the 'royalty' items.

I want to add that you made a service also by confirming this type of Ovchinnikov mark with the assayers mark to be a correct one. Thanks for that!

Congrats and Enjoy the very rare mirror!

[Aguest]

:::::: It might help the owner of the mirror to know that every part of the silver object is hallmarked, so if you take a really close look at the back of the coat-of-arms (which I believe is an "applied element" that was added on top of the mirror), and also if you take a close look at the feet, there might be tiny hallmarks that were stamped before the entire item was completed, these hallmarks might be so small such that they often go unrecognized, and sometimes they are very difficult to see because of the geometry of the overall object, but I just thought it would be of use for the owner of this mirror to search for hallmarks on the back of the coat-of-arms "applied element" part and also the feet :::::::::::::

[oel]

Hi Aguest,
After 1908, only the sample number had to be put on secondary parts of products above 84 samples: "88", etc.
See;
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... 06#p209306

Peter.