Wine Ladle

[oel]

does this hallmark mean anything? I just cleaned it to reveal more..

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Just to be clear, to me this mark mark appears to be a Kokoshnik facing right, in a square shield.

Peter.

[Qrt.S]

@Mart

Mind my asking but where and when was A. Trifonov active? This assayer's name is new for me. But, there was a silver master "Trifon", likely in Moscow in the far past (around 1476). Hardly anything is known about him, so let's skip him.
Thank you in advance.

Dmirty Ilich Tverskoy assayed only in St.Petersburg in mid 1800, forget him in this connection.

The strange punch.
The right looking kokshnik punch in a square shield with rounded corners is strange indeed on this object. It is a kind of an import mark (1,25x1,25 mm) and was used (1913-17) on gold chains only produced abroad. It was not used on silver products, so???
Too many disturbing punches here!!!!!!

[Mart]

A.Trifonov was the mintsmaster of the Tiflis Mint in the first third of the 19th century.
I have already written earlier:
"In accordance with the rules of 1908, this type of hallmark was used for certain types of gold items. The rhombus shape is for Russians, the square shape is for foreigners. I think that after the revolution and civil war these types of marks were used for reasons other than their original purpose. It is possible that the two hallmarks appeared on your item before 1927, when the hallmarking rules changed."
I don't see any problems. We see the stamps of the early 19th century, plus two stamps placed later indicating the quality of silver.

[Mart]

Clarification (thanks to ALEKS).
A. Trifonov was also the manager of the mint and the head of the assay department.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry, but I see "problems". There are too many obscure marks here (nameless e.g AT. Why isn't he mentioned anywhere???) some with unclear origin (the square import mark), and reasons, big year gaps (kokshnik etc...) and attendant's assumptions (could be...) but no certainties. As said before, the marks are a mess! Sorry, but I'm have a suspicious mind especially with old Russian silver!

[oel]

I believe all possibilities have been duly explained by Mart. Qrt.S, your opinion is clear no point to repeat it.

Peter.

[Mart]

I'll still try one more time).
You see diamond-shaped marks, which cannot be on these products, according to the Rules. But they exist and such products are not uncommon. I hope it's clear now.

[Qrt.S]

???
Why do the rhombus shielded kokshnik exist on silver objects? As Mart already mentioned it is/was exclusively a gold mark to be used only on gold bracelets and chains and articles of the kind and made in Russia in 56 zol. gold. According to the rules/law it was forbidden to be punched on silver objects?
Surprisingly I also found that if an object in silver carry this rhombus mark it should be deemed as forgery!? The same goes for the right looking kokoshnik in a square shield!? This is very confusing, interesting and new for me. An detailed explanation would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.

PS. Could the answer be that in the beginning of the 1900 marks were punched anyhow and the rules were broken? It looks a bit like that now!

[mouseinstalled45]

???
Why do the rhombus shielded kokshnik exist on silver objects? As Mart already mentioned it is/was exclusively a gold mark to be used only on gold bracelets and chains and articles of the kind and made in Russia in 56 zol. gold. According to the rules/law it was forbidden to be punched on silver objects?
Surprisingly I also found that if an object in silver carry this rhombus mark it should be deemed as forgery!? The same goes for the right looking kokoshnik in a square shield!? This is very confusing, interesting and new for me. An detailed explanation would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advance.

PS. Could the answer be that in the beginning of the 1900 marks were punched anyhow and the rules were broken? It looks a bit like that now!

do you think my item is a fake?

[Qrt.S]

Not necessarily a fake, but as long as there are no reasonable explanations given for all marks, I consider it to be a dubious object, but that is my opinion only. Deviant opinions may occur of course. What have been presented regarding this case are mostly only opinions and assumptions etc....There are, anyway, too many (odd) marks, unknown names and year gaps. That is always a "red" flag! Russian silver marks are not always "a piece of cake". What I wonder the most is what is the explanation for a gold punch on a silver object??? Mart showed interesting photos of rhombus/diamond shielded marks on silver, but again why so???? Interesting case anyway.

[mouseinstalled45]

Clarification (thanks to ALEKS).
A. Trifonov was also the manager of the mint and the head of the assay department.

So, then do I understand that Alexander Trifonov assayed this piece and his mark is the "A.T"?

[Mart]

Previously I wrote:
- where is the mark of the Tiflis Mint located,
- where is the annual stamp located (Georgian language),
- who was the assayer "AT"
- the reason for the appearance of later marks.
Please write all your questions in one message if they exist.

[mouseinstalled45]

Previously I wrote:
- where is the mark of the Tiflis Mint located,
- where is the annual stamp located (Georgian language),
- who was the assayer "AT"
- the reason for the appearance of later marks.
Please write all your questions in one message if they exist.

Let me attempt to summarize so that I can understand everything. I'm sorry, it's just a lot of information to a layman. I thank you for your patience!

This item has a mark of 1830 and a mark from the Tbilisi mint.

but also the o Kokoshnik 84 as a silver content confirmation starting I believe it was 1908? caucusus region of Georgia?

Alexander Trifonov was the assayer on this piece? As he was the manager at the time.

The right looking kokshnik punch in a square shield with rounded corners is normally used for gold pieces.

Do I have every correct?

[Mart]

Yes. Let me clarify a little.
Made in the 1820s-1830s. The exact year is written in Georgian. Perhaps the mark of a silversmith too. I don't know Georgian. Unfortunately, there is no time or important reason to clarify the exact year.
Two stamps with a kokoshnik were placed with a high degree of probability after 1917, when some stamps changed their first purpose, established by the rules of 1908.
All the best!

[silverstar777]

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its a georgian alphabet letters which meant specifically year ჩ ყ ვ means 1806

[Mart]

"...its a georgian alphabet letters which meant specifically year ჩ ყ ვ means 1806..."
If you draw the circle completely mentally, then I think there will be room on the right for one more number. This place has been completely erased. And I am not completely sure that the third digit is exactly “6”.
In 1806, Zaitsev or Karpinsky worked at the mint, but this needs to be clarified.

[mouseinstalled45]

.

its a georgian alphabet letters which meant specifically year ჩ ყ ვ means 1806

Wow very interesting! So this ladle is from 1806?

[mouseinstalled45]

"...its a georgian alphabet letters which meant specifically year ჩ ყ ვ means 1806..."
If you draw the circle completely mentally, then I think there will be room on the right for one more number. This place has been completely erased. And I am not completely sure that the third digit is exactly “6”.
In 1806, Zaitsev or Karpinsky worked at the mint, but this needs to be clarified.

How can we clarify is Zaitsev or Karpinsky made it?

[Mart]

Earlier I explained why I believe that the product was NOT made in 1806. Zaitsev and Karpinsky were not silversmiths. I noted earlier that they were mint employees, government employees. I previously wrote about whose “AT” mark is present on your product. I don't think he worked in 1806 in Tiflis.