Irish Ale Tankard - need help with Hallmarks

[Jeffstreasures]

I think this Ale Mug is Irish but I may be wrong. The marks are quite worn, any opinions on age ?

[silvermakersmarks]

Definitely Irish judging by the harp. What I assume to be the date letter is in the style used during the letter cycle 1720-1745 and, judging from the mark placement there may also have been a Hibernia which is now worn away; this would further restrict the date range to 1731-1745. However I cannot make that possible date letter look like any of the letters from that cycle no matter which way I look at it. My best guess would be Y for 1745.

Phil

[scorpio]

Puzzling hallmarks. The closest approximation to the date letter is the Y of 1745 as Phil said (and only an approximation) but the harp is incorrect for that date or close to that date. In fact it's puzzling that this tankard has a date mark at all as when Hibernia was introduced in 1730, the date letter was usually omitted from Irish silver until 1772 (apart from table spoons and table forks which invariably were date stamped). Nobody really knows why but pieces other than spoons and forks with date marks between those years are few and far between and have to be dated by examining the Harps and Hibernia marks. You will find these in Douglas Bennett's Irish Georgian Silver (1972) and a hard to find booklet by Kurt Tischer/National Museum of Ireland, Hall-Marks on Dublin Silver 1730-1772 (1972). It's a pity the Hibernia mark is so worn as that could have helped a lot.

The 1745 harp only had 4 strings not 5 as seen on your piece, some 1745 harps had no strings. I've looked at various harps around that period and none look like this one. Variations included spikes instead of jewels in the crown and many include loops at base of human figure not seen on your piece and the dot inset into the base of the human figure and the two holes in the soundbox are puzzling. The top of the soundbox is sharp like a 1747 one but there its similarity ends (outside this date letter sequence anyway). Most soundboxes tend to be more rounded at the top.

The decoration with its stippled background is almost certainly later, probably the 1820s.

I'll see what else I can find but it is a strange one to decipher.

[scorpio]

Be interesting to weigh this tankard and see how it compares to the 5.80 troy ounces marked on the base.

[scorpio]

Can't see any letters or Harps similar in this date sequence pre 1730 either.

[Aguest]

:::: Could this maybe be 1715 and the date-letter is just slightly mis-struck so some details at the top of the "Y" did not strike through (you can barely see those details if you look very very closely at the date letter)? ::::::::::::

::::: If this is 1715, is it possible that the mark in the exact center of the base is actually a Makers Mark? ::::::::

:::::: (there are a few examples from 1715 that I have been able to look at but I defer to other opinions for the final analysis). ::::::::

[silvermakersmarks]

This definitely looks like 1715 - I don't know why I didn't look any earlier than 1720; I think I must have assumed that there should have been 3 parts to the hallmark.

So the central mark must be what remains of the maker's mark.

Thanks, Aguest!

[AG2012]

Ruined with much later Victorian decoration.
Regards

[silverly]

Ruined with much later Victorian decoration.
Regards

Wondered about that. Still part of the history.

[dognose]

Ruined with much later Victorian decoration.

Ruined, perhaps, but it has survived, complete with the marks, albeit not in its original form. The alternative, perhaps, is that it may had gone into the melting pot, and weighed in against the purchase of a new piece. At least this cobbled result is the lesser of two evils.

Trev.

[dognose]

I've checked the reference by Dr. Kurt Ticher, Ida Delamer and William O'Sullivan (1968), but unfortunately it does not appear to make mention of the Harp mark prior to 1729.

Trev.

[scorpio]

Definitely 1715. Well spotted Aguest.

This is an Irish silver spoon tray 1715. Harp is identical including the dot in the human figure and the two holes in the sound box. Date letter clearly correct too.

[scorpio]

[scorpio]

...and from a sugar caster 1715..This shows the full harp, the top of which is worn away in other images.

[scorpio]

..and the clearest marks of all from a tankard by Joseph Walker 1715:

[Aguest]

::::: The only Dublin Ireland hallmark that could even possibly fit is Edward Workman, and also the way he inscribed numbers in a sort of slanted style, maybe there's not enough evidence, but at least the leading candidate right now is Edward Workman, in my mind at least. ::::::



:::::: Is it even possible to use these "scratch weight numbers" in an attempt to identify a maker? ::::::

:::::: {a complete list of Dublin makers who were working in 1715 I do not possess therefore the maker could be someone else entirely}. :::::::::

[scorpio]

I could be wrong but I believe weights were scratched on by the assay office before being returned for final finishing so will not provide clues as to the maker.

Joseph Walker (1690-1722) with the looped W in his mark (very similar to Edward Workman's looped W) is another possible maker of this tankard.

[Aguest]

::::: Thank you. I was just reviewing Joseph Walker, this is proving to be quite challenging. ::::::