Skandinavian (?) beaker I.

[huszas76]

Hello Everyone!
I bought an unidantified beaker.
I'm guessing Scandinavian, maybe Norwegian but I'm clueless, os it is a wild guess.






Anyone has any ideas?
Thank you for your help
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Aguest]

::::: I still do think this is Scandanavian, and this might be just a coincidence in which Scandinavian hallmarks are similar to the Kingdom Of Naples hallmarks circa 1690-1700, but the shape of those crowns really reminds me of silver hallmarks from the Kingdom Of Naples circa 1690-1700. :::::::

::::: Could be a complete coincidence, but I just wanted to point this out so we can rule out the Kingdom Of Naples circa 1690-1700. ::::::

[Qrt.S]

Scandinavian hallmarks

#Aguest
Interesting marks but mind my asking what makes you think on Scandinavian marks??? I have difficulties in finding anything Scandinavian in these marks, so? Anyway, I tried to find something but with poor result i.e nothing, not even close.

#Krisztián
Sorry, no ideas....

[Aguest]

:::: "I still do think this (object) is Scandinavian" is what I was saying. The cartouche and the initials really remind me of some pieces from Denmark from the mid-18th century. Those details are really shouting "I'm Scandinavian" to me. The hallmarks are too far out of my league to comment on. But all I know for sure is that they do sort of look like The Kingsdom Of Naples circa 1690-1700. The shape of the crowns is really quite similar. There seems to be a date of "1700" on once of the hallmarks, and The Kingdom Of Naples included a date underneath a NAP abbreviation. ::::::::

:::::: The Naples similarities could be a complete coincidence, though, I really don't know enough about 18th century Scandinavian hallmarks. ::::::

[Aguest]

::::: If you found this object unmarked, without any hallmarks whatsoever, the details such as the cartouche, the font of the initials, and the foliate engraving design, and the tradition of wedding beakers with 2 sets of initials, all of this would lead you to believe this object is Scandinavian (likely Denmark) :::::::

:::::: Maybe you're thinking it could be Baltic silver, somehow? I have thought about Baltic silver. That possibility just seems less probable than Scandinavia (Denmark) so I haven't been thinking about it as much & also we would need someone with more 18th century Baltic experience to evaluate the hallmarks. :::::

[amena]

I don't seem to see any particular similarities with the hallmarks of the Kingdom of Naples at the end of the 17th century. The outline of the mark is never oval, but follows the shape of the crown at the top, and then forms a sort of shield containing the letters NA or NAP and the date numbers.

The crowns are different from year to year, and sometimes even in the same year. Furthermore, the other marks that accompany the hallmark, the consul's mark and the silversmith's mark have different iconographies

Just my opinion.
Regards
Amena

[Qrt.S]

#Aguest
Would you kindly show me one single known crowned Danish hallmark or maker's mark that resembles the showed one, thank you. Not either found in Sweden or Norway. There are undeniably a few crowned marks in the mentioned countries, but as said none that matches these. Neither in Finland that is not Scandinavian but a Nordic country. You can also forget the Baltic countries. Why would a Baltic country use a crowned mark?
Anyway, this is an old piece and in those old days the marks were what they were, so.....???
Sorry my good man.

[Aguest]

Double maker's mark M.K
The maker's mark M.K in a double rectangle for; Martin Krüger, registered in Libau, 1780-1788.
See Baltic Silver by Carl Ehrnrooth page 359 and 320

[Aguest]

::::: I've stated my position twice, using two different methods, but I will try to explain it one more time. :::

::::: " I still do think this [OBJECT] is Scandanavian [BECAUSE OF THE OVERALL FORM OF THE OBJECT, THE CARTOUCHE, THE FONT OF THE LETTERS, AND THE TRADITION OF MARRIAGE BEAKERS FROM DENMARK], and this might [MIGHT, BECAUSE I AM NOT KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT 18th CENTURY SCANDINAVIAN HALLMARKS WHICH IS WHY I USED THE WORD "MIGHT"] be just a coincidence in which Scandinavian hallmarks are similar to the Kingdom Of Naples hallmarks circa 1690-1700, but the shape of those crowns really reminds me of silver hallmarks from the Kingdom Of Naples circa 1690-1700. :::::::"

::::::: Someone who has a book on 18th century silver from Denmark might actually have seen hallmarks similar to the hallmarks on this beaker. The date is possibly 1700, and it is difficult for me to find silver from the turn of the 18th century from Denmark, so there is a gap in my knowledge base. There might be similar hallmarks, but I do not know. :::::::

:::::: Amena has ruled out the similarity to the Kingdom Of Naples, which is very helpful, to the eyes of a more knowledgable collector of Italian Silver, the hallmarks have significant differences and this is a helpful bit of analysis for which I am grateful. ::::::

[Aguest]

The City of Naestved, Denmark had an older Town Hallmark that has been described as a "Crowned NE" in the literature.
Many of the smaller Danish cities had their own "Town Marks" while Copenhagen was using the "Three Tower Mark" that was instituted in 1608.

[Aguest]

:::::: Maybe the hallmarks on the beaker are actually a "CROWN OVER CONJOINED NE" which would make it from Naestved, Denmark? :::::::
::::::: I thought that might be a possibility when I was looking at all these crown hallmarks from Bergen, love all these variations. :::::::::::

[Aguest]

I'M SORRY I POSTED BERGEN TWICE (here is the mid-18th century Naestved Denmark hallmark):

[oel]

Næstved, city, southern Sjælland (Zealand), Denmark, on the Suså River. Næstved originated around a Benedictine monastery, founded in 1135.

Rosenberg also shows some Danish master marks consisting of initials above a year in cartouche.

Peter

Source; Marc Rosenberg Der Goldschmiede merzeichen IV. Band/Ausland und Byzanz Berlin 1928, Næstved, Seeland page 172

[huszas76]

Dear Aguest and Peter!
Thank you for you help!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Aguest]

:::: Would be interesting to see Master Marks with date beneath (from the book), I keep wondering if the "(ID 1700)" hallmark is actually over-stamped on top of another hallmark, but it could be that I am not seeing the Master Mark correctly, perhaps there is no over-stamping at all. ::::::