Please help to identify the maker's mark of the set of Norwegian Bergen spoons.

[SpoonLover]

I have three Norwegian spoons with a Bergen hallmark (at the end of the 19th century Bergen mark was reduced to seven balls). I believe these spoons were made in 1884 and have zodiac cancer hallmark from June 22 to July 22. But I can not find the maker's mark: PK (I think). Please help to find the makers' mark. (I have published the photos of the hallmarks of two spoons of this set together).

[Qrt.S]

A zodiac mark like this was not anymore used in late 19th century but it was used 1788, but then again the Bergen town mark looked different.
Anyway, I cannot either find any suitable maker from the latter half of the 19th century. In my mind something is not in place here-

[SpoonLover]

Thank you very much for the response. According to Tardy, zodiac marks in 1821 in fractions were restored. And in the same book: " At the end of 19th century the Bergen mark was reduced to seven balls, when stuck on small articles." Also I think that may be the maker's mark is DK.

Again thank you very much!

[Qrt.S]

My pleasure and yes, the zodiac marks were "restored" in 1821 but they got a totally new shape containing figures. I tried with any possible combination of the maker's mark but unfortunately with no success. As I already mentioned, something is not in place...

[Silverstone]

Hi SpoonLover and Qrt.S!

„The most commonly seen of those new types are the spoons with a finial in the shape of a bunch of grapes or a cone.
They are found in two variants; one where the stem is absolutely smooth with a central groove, and one where the lower part of the stem is a little wider and matted. There are also a few of the type which has vines with grapes in relief around the stem...This type reached the peak of the popularity between 1640 and 1670.“

69 = June 22 to July 22 - o.k.

84 - 1684 ?
Very old spoons or a reprise?

Source:
cf.: Europäisches Hansemuseum, Silberglanz & Silbergier - Der Silberschatz aus Bergen, published by Dr. Felicia Sternfeld, edition expecto, Lübeck 2016, p. 67, 68

Regards
Silverstone

[Silverstone]

Dear SpoonLover,
this is a photo of some grape-spoons from the 17th century.
Unfortunately, the spoons have a completely different style.
I'm sorry for giving you an incorrect information.



Source:
Jorunn Fossberg, Sigrid Wegge Tandberg, Norsk sølv, Gullsmeder gjennom 600 år, Bergen, Møre og Romsdal, Trøndelag, Nord-Norge, p. 236

Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

No problem Silverstone, it's OK even if I almost fainted reading you input :-))
Anyway, let's revers a bit.
If we pay attention to marks they tell that the spoons would be made during the first half of the 19th century. The outlook of the spoons is rather uncommon for the mentioned period. Moreover, the bowl's shape is as well "uncommon".
The marks.
- The town mark is Bergen's seven cannonballs. This kind of town mark was used as from about 1820-
- The zodiac mark is cancer and this shape was used around 1766-1820. Zodiac marks were used later but with another outlook.
- The maker is not identified (I haven't managed to identify him.) Has anyone ?
- What is a bit odd is that the spoons have a round stem (commonly flat in those days!) and have a rather heavy decoration for the period, but?
- Is the "84" a year mark or what, is puzzling. It is obviously a year. If so it would be 1784. 1884 is too late. But 1784???

[Silverstone]

Ort.S, no one should faint here!

First of all, thank you for your comments.

After the initial excitement that I found something about grape spoons in the book Silberlust und Silbergier, I continued searching.

Later on I discovered In the book Norsk sølv several drueskje.
Unfortunately, this style was very different from SpoonLover's spoons!
Luckily I didn't faint and was just able to apologize quickly.

Like so often...Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

@Silverstone
:-))))))) OK, anyway, I wrote almost

Did you find anything identifying these spoons' marks? I didn't. I also saw the spoons i Norsk Sølv. I also checked from Norske Sølvskjeer by Jorunn Fossberg, but nothing. Drueskje means grape spoon. All in all, what is the result? The maker is not either identified. Fake or genuine?

[oel]

In my opinion, these spoons are in the naturalic (revival) rococo style. The marks are not convincing.
For examples see:
https://cefiro.main.jp/Gallery_Rococo_N ... Spoon.html

Peter.

[SpoonLover]

I was sure that these spoons were made in 1884. But now I have made a second look at these spoons and I think that they were built such way that decorated the back of the spoons. I.e. the spoons were laid on the table in the French manner (the bottom of the bowl downward). It was a custom until the 1770s. Also I have a forth spoon, that was broken and then fixed such way that the handle decoration was turned for the 19-th century custom. . So I think now that may be these spoons were made in 1784.

[Qrt.S]

Please note that the town mark doesn't match with 1784. It had a different outlook then.

[Silverstone]

Gentlemen,

it is a reprise!
A collector from Norway wrote:
"Skjeene er støpt, med merker og det hele, de utgir seg for å være laget av Ditlef Kahrs i 1784 men er nok laget litt over 100 år senere, rundt 1900. da det ble laget mye merkelig, og det var lite kunnskap blant folk."

My translation:
The spoons are cast, with markings and all, they have been made by Ditlef Kahrs in 1784, but were probably made a litle over 100 years later, around 1900.

A potpourri!
Silverstone

[SpoonLover]

Thank you very much!

I also want to mention, that fakes usually would be cast with the hallmarks. But here at least I can be sure that hallmarks were actually stamped, because the same marks have different positions on different spoons.

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmm! And the rest of the not translated text says: ...when many strange things were made, and there was little knowledge among the people.
Yes, a plausible explanation. I saw/found the mentioned maker on p. 83 in Norsk sølv. His name is actually Ditmer Kahrs born in Bergen 1740. An independent but registered master in march 1762 and dead 21.5.1788. I didn't mention him because his punch is not known/shown. However, if it is him it doesn't explain the incorrect Bergen town mark lacking the town gate of Bergen. The mark of seven cannon balls/hills without the gate was implemented not earlier than in around 1820! At that time Kahrs was dead! Mind my asking but how does your friend explain that?

[SpoonLover]

I found such DK image, may be that DK.

[Silverstone]

@ Qrt.S
Your comment - https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... 14#p181614 29.06.2020:

The guardein i.e assayer is either Jens Kahrs or his son Ditmer/Ditmar Kahrs, more likely the latter. He assayed in Bergen gullsmedaslaug in NORWAY together with his father Jens 1765-1781. After his father's death 1781 Ditmer change his guardein mark to just DK as from 1781-1788. He dies 21.5.1788.

Norsk Sølv - page 32


@ SpoonLover
You have four rare spoons. Each spoon is unique because it has been crafted differently.
You will definitely like the spoons.

Silverstone

[Silverstone]

Two photos:



AS = Andreas Kierumgaard Sæbye, mester i Bergen 1767-1783



Source:
©photos: Skanfil for samlere, Norway
Norsk Folkemuseum

Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

This is a tricky case. I have some "answers" to the punches. It seems to that at least some of them are old Guardeinstempler/Assay Office marks and the rest are masters. The building above the 7 cannon balls/hills in the town mark is as I already mentioned Bergen's town gate, abandoned about/before 1820. Only the cannon balls/hills were left.

The marks:

MP is guardein Mathias Pettersen 6-11 1788?
AL possibly master Anders Larsen 1837-1840(74)?
DK is guardein Dithmer Kahrs 1781-88
AL possibly Andreas Lude 1776-1816?
PGA possibly master Peter Gabriel Aasmundsen, 1801-1829, alderman 1816-1818?
P guardein Mathias Pettersen 1790-1812
AB possibly master Andreas Blytt 1829?
B on W guardein Peter Michael Blytt 1812-1821

No guarantees given, Norwegian marks are sometimes rather insufficient and also incomplete, especially older marks.

[Qrt.S]

Ahhhh! Some inputs were made while I was writing, but no problems or nothing radical. All in order.