Florentine cutlery set

[amena]

I recently saw a set of cutlery described as 17th century on a well-known Dutch online auction platform.


It goes without saying that anyone with minimal knowledge of cutlery can see that it is cutlery from the mid-nineteenth century or beyond, but the seller also publishes among the descriptive photos an image taken from page 714 of "Miller's encyclopedia of world silver marks".

In this image, slavishly taken from page 366 of the Rosenberg (foreign), the stamp of the sitting lion above the letter F is dated to the 17th century. This is one of Rosenberg's many errors, which persist over time.

That mark certainly came into force in 1832 and even today there is no agreement among experts on the fact that an almost identical mark was also used in the period between 1781 and 1808, as claimed by Professor Dora Liscia Benporad and others, or only starting from 1832, as claimed by Giovanni Raspini, a well-known Florentine jeweler and expert.

In any case we are very far from the 17th century.
Finally, the crowned F has nothing to do with Florence
Just to warn you.
Amena

[JayT]

Hello Amena
Thank you for the warning, and for analyzing this listing.
Of course, as you say, anyone with even basic knowledge can see that this is a standard boxed set of flatware, usually given as a wedding gift, dating to mid-nineteenth C or later.
How does anyone who pretends to call themselves an expert get away with this?
Regards.

[amena]

An expert? a very fine expert!
Here are some passages from his presentation
Member of the executive committee of The Silver Society
Former cataloger of ancient silver for various museums
Former consultant teacher at Sotheby's Institute
...... her greatest passion, silverware, ......
she has collaborated with Koopman Rare Art, Sotheby's Institute, various museums, Tefaf Maastricht and beyond, she is a leader in her field.
In 2023 she was appointed Freeman of the Goldsmiths' Company.
With inexhaustible curiosity, ...... she investigates the historical and sentimental value of the objects presented.
Jokes aside, I believe that the "experts" of that auction house cannot dedicate more than a few seconds to examining the lot presented.
There are at least four other experts for silver auctions and the tune does not change.
On the other hand, it is well specified that the seller is solely responsible for the description of the lot.
It is not clear what the role of the experts is

[JayT]

Hello Amena
All I can say is that someone with the credentials of this expert should have seen in seconds that a boxed set of flatware was not Italian silver from the 17th C. Furthermore the estimate given is delusional. In France, the owner would be lucky to get even 25% of the stated high estimate. I hope you follow the auction and report back, or even challenge the expert’s opinion.
Regards

[amena]

Hi JayT
the auction closed without the reserve price being reached, but it is likely that the lot will return to auction in some time, if so I will post information.
I contacted the seller telling him that the "Marzocco", as the sitting lion is often called, did not come into force before 1781. To date he has not responded to me and I don't know whether he appreciated my information or not. I know from experience that most of the time they don't believe what they don't want to believe.
As for the experts, lately they are defended by a sort of firewall. You can send a message to customer service, who forwards it to the expert. The expert responds to customer service who forwards his response to you. When I contacted them in the past, they usually replied that I don't know what I'm saying, and when the mistake was undeniable, their disinterest and annoyance was evident.
Now I've stopped writing to them.
Best regards
Amena

[JayT]

Hello Amena
Thanks for the follow-up.
I guess nobody likes to be contradicted, therefore you might not hear from the seller.
As for “experts,” does their responsibility vary by their location? In France they are government licensed, and must stand by their description of the object. Therefore the risk is theirs and not the auctioneer’s. At auction it is the expert who presents the object. Of course this doesn’t mean that they aren’t ever wrong in their analysis or evaluation, nor does it mean that they are pleasant when contradicted.
The antiques market is not for the faint of heart.
Regards.

[blakstone]

I work for an auction house as their silver specialist and I thought it might be helpful to add some context.

I am not familiar with this Dutch site, but note that there are two sorts of online auctions: one which the sellers themselves describe and post their items, and one which posts lots offered by various auction houses, where the items are (usually) vetted and catalogued by knowledgeable persons employed by the auction house.

Separate references here to the "seller" and to the "auction house" are, to my ear as an auction professional, contradictory; the lot is either posted by a seller or an auction house. So I'd be curious to know which is the case here.

No disagreement whatsoever, though, that this is mid-19th century.

[oel]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catawik ... %20objects.
Catawiki, indeed a Dutch online auction platform. They organize special sales under the guidance of an expert. The sellers describe and place their items on the site themselves. The seller holds the item until it is sold to the highest buyer and paid, including the buyers premium directly to the auction site . After this the seller must send the item to the buyer. If a conflict arises between the buyer and seller shortly afterwards. The auction site asks both parties for an explanation and plays the judge and makes a substantiated decision. The parties are expected to accept this. Read and understand the auction conditions carefully in advance.

Indeed, a potential buyer should read the information carefully and review the images of the item and its marks provided by the seller.
Here the seller supported the silver mark by using the information and images from specialized literature of the good old Marc Rosenberg, outdated but sometimes still very useful.
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction ... ?locale=fr
https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-2040794
The Miller's edition, as we know, is full of copy and paste information of other authors and their errors. The online auction supervisor, in his role as a silver specialist, has accepted the seller's description of the item and given permission to participate in the online auction.
Sellers, silver specialists and potential buyers sometimes, unintentionally use outdated, incorrect literature and make a mistake. And yes, sometimes the better informed buyer can benefit from this too.
We certainly cannot blindly rely on an expert's opinion. Although, they are predominantly honest, hard-working employees. We expect them to be well read and studied in their field and expertise. Who continuously stay up to date by critically reading the latest professional literature. There are good and bad experts. Yes, sometimes we are very disappointed by the so-called experts. That is why we must do our homework carefully and do not hesitate to ask the expert for additional explanation and information before placing a bid. If we fail to do this, we should not act pitiful afterwards and shout bloody murder.
At an auction, the old saying applies: knowledge is power.


Peter

[amena]

Hello everyone, I see that my post, initially aimed only at warning about some errors of Miller's, has branched out somewhat.

To JayT
It is clearly specified in the "Terms of Use" of this auction house
As a seller, the presentation of items is your total responsibility. When submitting an item, be sure to provide a detailed and accurate description, as well as any other relevant information.
and further
You ensure that the final description used represents the item accurately. Responsibility towards third parties (including the buyer) lies entirely with you if the description of the item is incorrect, incomplete, misleading or imprecise.
From reading the "Terms of use" it seems that the experts' task is limited to finding the right auction where to insert the proposed item and possibly make an evaluation based on the in formation given by the seller.

To Blackstone
In this case the lot is offered by a seller who also has a real antiques and numismatics shop, as well as his own online sales site.
However, the "Terms of use" do not change.

To Peter
Maximum respect for Rosenberg's monumental work, but while anyone approaching a book that is about to turn a century can expect to find some errors, those who consult a rather recent book have the right not to expect any.
Since Rosenberg's publication, dozens of books on Italian silver have been published, and whoever publishes an Encyclopedia of World Silver Marks, in my opinion, has a duty to do their research.
I am a regular visitor of Catawiki and visit silver auctions almost daily. There are often very accurate and useful marks photos. I also have bought and sold.
The two main things that distinguished Catawiki from other online sales sites were the payment method you described, which protects quite well against scams and deceptions, and the fact that
Catawiki experts examine and approve all items put up for auction.
A few years ago, in the presentation screen of each lot, there was a "contact the expert" button, by clicking on which you could request clarifications, further images or anything else.
Perhaps this wasted too much time and so,over time, this button disappeared and today you have to contact the assistance center and any direct contact with the expert is impossible.
The impression is that today, in fact, experts simply publish what the seller writes, without even correcting banal errors such as the beginning of the 19th century for 1920-30.
I have collected a small anthology of these pearls.
Regards
Amena