Is this box from 1595?

[gsmoggy]

Theoderich can possibly give more information about the Zwickau swan.

Peter.

Hi Peter

I know no examples of Zwickau hallmarks of this time, but I do not believe that it is from Zwickau.

Re a Theoderich answer on this forum Mon April 20 2009 (Small box with swan mark,Granmaa 20-9-2088)
he says "Zwickau (Germany) also had a swan mark.
What mark is he talking about? what period? any images?

Regards Guido .

[oel]

Your swan mark on the box

Compared to Zwickau mark in Marc Rosenberg's Der Goldschmiede Merkzeichen (Band 3): Deutschland N - Z;


In my opinion the marks on the box are pseudo marks in the Hanau style.


Peter

[gsmoggy]

Hi Peter

Many thanks for the first images of the Zwickau swan marks .I agree the mark on the box is different.
as I mentioned to the owner the grape vine mark may be a clue.

Not sure if grape vine mark is recorded in Zwickau,if not may be a Hanau mark.

I explained that Hanau are pseudo marks (old style from earlier period) as we know most find Hanau marks the most confusing.

Regards

[Theoderich]

Hi Guido, your grape mark


And the grape mark on a vesta case, also with a swan mark
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... an#p218580

You feel both marks look similar?


Peter.

Nice,
yes it is the same mark. Also the swan mark and another Pseudo Mark.
I do not know the town. I think it is not Hanau but an other town in which where pseudo marks used.

Well, it is not from 1595 and it is not from Zwickau.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Theoderich
Many thanks for your reply and comments.
I feel you may be correct.
now that I have finally seen the images of original Zwickau marks.
I have the same feeling the swan mark on the box is not the same as the early Zwickau mark.
Where it is from remains a mystery .As you say it has a Hanau feel.
This mark ,should probably be under,unrecorded marks.

Regards Guido.

[rynegold]

I believe you're intaglio is pressed glass, which came into use/production in 1820 / 30ish. So even if this is the marriage of two items from different eras, in my mind it shouldn't be any older than the oldest component which would be the intaglio.


https://www.google.com/search?q=history ... e&ie=UTF-8

[gsmoggy]

I believe you're intaglio is pressed glass, which came into use/production in 1820 / 30ish. So even if this is the marriage of two items from different eras, in my mind it shouldn't be any older than the oldest component which would be the intaglio.


https://www.google.com/search?q=history ... e&ie=UTF-8

Hello Rynegold
Many thanks for your observation and comments.
A very interesting comment,I am not an expert on intaglios,although going back and having a better look,I feel you may be correct that it is pressed glass,
and not hand carved rock crystal .It does not have that sharpness and crispiness that hand carved rock crystal would have.
If it is pressed glass that makes dating it very difficult,I always felt the boxes main feature was the intaglio(as I said may have been earlier than the box,if rock crystal)

As I said earlier as a small box collector,this box was very intriguing for me ,I felt I should look into it origin for my own curiosity .

Still an interesting box for what it is.

[rynegold]

Also, what you're got there is actually a "cameo", not an intaglio. And intaglio is "incised", I e. Cut down deeply into an originally smooth something... It can be shelled, stone, whatever. A cameo has the subject (in the case of your example here, a bust of a woman) raised, and the background lowered. Not to be picky but I just wanted you to know the difference because it's a pretty big one! Lol!

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[amena]

May I afford to disagree?
Intaglio is an Italian word meaning
Work artistically performed by removing material according to a design.
The cameo (in Italian cammeo) is also a carving, but made on the surface of a stratified shell or gem, i.e. material made up of two layers of different colors which therefore allow the background to be clearly isolated from the figure you want to leave in relief.
Most cameos traditionally represent busts of girls, but there are cameos of all kinds.

Regards
Amena

[gsmoggy]

Hello Amena
Many thanks for your reply and comments,and the the images of some very fine examples of cameos .
And also thanks Rynegold for your thoughts re Intaglio? or cameo.

In my opinion it is closer to an Intaglio than cameo (as most proper intaglios are carved rock crystal) the one one the box may be pressed glass?it
is in my opinion meant to represent an intaglio look.

The word cameo as Amena has suggested mainly refers to caving of portraits or head profiles on shell or other materials(Ivory ,lava,stone ,etc)
The image on the box could also maybe called a cameo(in theory) although I still feel because of the material it is made from ,closer to intaglio.

Example ,is the intaglio on a box or a container. take your pick.

Regards Guido.

[gsmoggy]

Hello Amena
Many thanks for your reply and comments,and the the images of some very fine examples of cameos .
And also thanks Rynegold for your thoughts re Intaglio? or cameo.

In my opinion it is closer to an Intaglio than cameo (as most proper intaglios are carved rock crystal) the one one the box may be pressed glass?it
is in my opinion meant to represent an intaglio look.

The word cameo as Amena has suggested mainly refers to caving of portraits or head profiles on shell or other materials(Ivory ,lava,stone ,etc)
The image on the box could also maybe called a cameo(in theory) although I still feel because of the material it is made from ,closer to intaglio.

Example ,is the intaglio on a box or a container. take your pick.

Regards Guido.

Many thanks Amena.
The cameo of the old man is my favorite here.I feel by far the best quality. As we know some of the best ever cameos came from Italy.
The quality of the others in my opinion not that good.
very strange at the moment cameos seem to be out of fashion for some reason.

Thanks for showing these images ,great work.
Regards Guido.

Regards Guido.