Help French? Belgium" Muffineer

[Aguest]

:::: This might be a version of the "Special Use Hallmark" that I just realized might be similar to the hallmark on this muffineer? ::::: However, this might be from Belgium because the (950M) hallmark is sometimes seen there? :::: The hallmark on the top of the muffineer is something I do not know about, is it a bundle of flowers? ::::: Thank you for the help as I do not understand these hallmarks :::

[oel]

Hi Aguest,

Can you read the small letters on top of the 950M mark?

Peter.

[Aguest]

:::: It looks like "BARR---" and then I can't read the last letters :::::::: Will keep trying to read and try to enlarge that name if possible. :::::;

[Aguest]

:::: I believe the mark is an "Obus" mark, so this mutineer was to be exported? :::::: I

I found this on a French Thimble research database:

"In addition to assay office export marks, for example the Mercury head found on the restruck La Fontaine Fable thimbles and signifying that the thimble is of legal standard of fineness to be exported, the 'Obus' (cannon shell) mark, in use since 1884, was struck by the maker on articles of low silver quality which were to be exported. The Obus contained the master's mark and the letter M or K indicating fineness.

The Obus mark was not usually associated with any other mark since both the maker and the degree of fineness of the silver were contained within the same mark."

::::: I may have found an unusual case where the Obus mark is associated with another mark which appears on the small removable top? :::::

[Aguest]

:::: Now I think it could be GARR and maybe it is HENRI GARROT but I can't find his working dates :::: The date is 1884-1900 based on the hallmark and the overall style of the Muffineer. ::::::



::::: (there seems to be a similar symbol in both hallmarks, kind of like an axe?). ::::::

[Aguest]

::::: I apologize for all the posting, but does anyone know when the Obus Mark was discontinued? ::::::
:::::: (HENRI GARROT is listed as registering his mark in 1930 so I was just curious because this Muffineer doesn't seem like it's from as late as 1930 but knowing when the Obus Mark was discontinued might help me to better understand what is going on here) ::::::::::::

[oel]

The Obus, French export mark has been discussed here:
viewtopic.php?p=222216#p222216
According to my information the Obus mark is still in use today.

Source: World Hallmarks Volume I Europe Hallmark Research Institute.

[Aguest]

(Large Articles -Fleur De Lis - Paris: 16 August 1819 - 16 November 1819.)

::::: First I just want to figure out if this is a match. Then I will try to understand the dates of these large article hallmarks and how long they were in use, which I don't currently understand at all. I don't understand how long they were in use. :::::::::::

[oel]

1819 Paris Census mark. Lily flower in an oval frame. Census mark of 1819 for large works in gold or silver. Used in Paris, between 16 August and 16 November 1819.Census mark ( poinçon de recense): whenever a prevalence of fake or stolen hallmarks was observed in circulation by the authorities, new hallmarks of different design would be prepared, and all jewellers ordered to present their stock to the assay office for examination.The precious metal items were then struck with a special census (or recall) mark indicating it had been verified. After the grace period during which the service was free, any precious metal item still found in jeweller's stock without the census mark would be marked the new hallmarks by the assay office and the full excise fees demanded.
In my opinion you would expect this census mark in combination with "older" hallmarks.
The obus mark, beginning in 1884, was originally used for only gold and silver items that were legally required to be exported. This special mark was designed to be inclusive of the maker's initials, a prescribed symbol, and the indication of precious metal fineness. The fineness was either expressed in thousands (i.e. silver 950M) or in karats (i.e.gold 14K). This mark was applied to items that either met French standards or were under the minimum fineness and therefore could not be sold in France.
The mark on your muffineer is not the 1819 census mark.

Peter.





Source; Michael Fieggen, French Precious Metal Hallmarks from 1789 to date

[blakstone]

I concur; I don't think that is a French census mark. Rather, I think it is the Swiss "Edelwiss" import mark used 1917-1937. I would like to see a clearer photo. Neither the style of the piece nor the "950" mark are consistent with early 19th century France.

[Aguest]

:::: Thank you I think you are correct about the Swiss Edelweiss hallmark that is the answer I was looking for thank you. :::::::::