Moscow R.Petko ?

[silverfan]

What about these two spoons?
Regards silverfan

[Mart]

Hello!
I think there is an inscription "Я.PETRO". At the very beginning of the 20th century, some silversmiths in Moscow made their stamps not in Russian. Yakov Petrov (ЯКов ПЕтров) often used the brand "ЯК:ПE".

[Qrt.S]

According to the rules you should not show several objects in the same thread! It only causes confusion.

Anyway, the upper picture carries the mark MK. That would/could be assayer Mihail Karpinskij, active in Moscow 1800-1824 (1828?). That is the 19th century! An M is also visible in the lower photo being likely assayer Karpinskij's over stamped punch. The poor town punch of St.George for Moscow was used in the beginning of 19th century like the year 1802(?) also indicates.

But the punch Я·PETRO...?! A CYRILLIC Я (Ya) followed with LATIN letters (especially the R!). What kind of a Russian marking is that? Moreover, there are some more marks to the left on both photos, what are they, please clarify? Yes, there was another rather unknown master Yakov Petrov, but he was in St.Petersburg during the latter part of 19th century. His punch was ЯП. What has he or the Petrov from the 20th century that Mart mentions to do with this?

Interesting case, but the markings are a mess, Please show some better and clearer photos of all marks and the whole object too, thank you.
Something is not in place here!

[Mart]

Of course, this is the first decade of the 19th century. Of course, these are the initials of probirer Mikhail Karpinsky. Of course, Karpinsky worked in Moscow for many years, but not in every one of those years did he put his stamp. This is not 1802. It's more likely to be 1806, give or take a year.
I have already mentioned what brands some silversmiths used at that time.

[Mart]

"Я.PETRO"(V).
Yes, that's a mixed brand. I have no right to reproach the silversmith for his poor knowledge of a foreign language.)))

[Qrt.S]

???? "Mixed brand?". Are you joking? Never heard, read or seen another example of a such a mixed brand. If you, Mart, have a clear indisputable picture of another "similar" maker's punch with mixed Latin and Cyrillic letters, I would really appreciate if you would be so kind and show it, thank you in advance! That would make my day.... By the way, it is not a question of reproaching but to find an explanation to this mysterious case.

Anyway, let's wait for new better and sharper photos and if possible from another angle and with the marks in the left, thank you. I believe it will show a reasonable solution to this "miracle" of mixed letters! I have seen a lot, but not yet all.

[Mart]

It is not difficult for me to imagine that a silversmith (often a peasant) in the early 19th century could have made a mistake in an inscription in a foreign language. He was not connected to the Internet and did not have his own translator.
On a silver product in this theme, a long stamp is applied to a short one. I wouldn't be surprised if it's his brand either.
This fashion has been around for only five years. The participants I know are Nikitin, Frolov, Ivanov, Efimov....
Perhaps there is another answer. I have expressed my opinion.

[silverfan]

Hi Kurt,
your hint not to show several objeccts in one threat is not helpfull. I intentionally posted both pictures because of the same maker.
The marks on the left are Austro-hungarian import marks.
What is not in place here? The marks are as they are. Adding photos leads to nothing.
The discussion shows that the parrticipants concentrate on the essentials.
Regards silverfan

[silverfan]

I add another mark, year probably 1806
Regards silverfan

[Qrt.S]

@silverfan
1. I'm not hinting anything. I'm only referring to the rules i.e. "One object per thread"
2. Good photos are the key to almost everything regarding interpreting silver marks.
3. What is the smudge to mark in your last post far right suppose to show , Moscow, St. Petersburg or possibly New York? One could imagine that is could show St. Petersburg's town crest, but? If it for some reason it turns out to be Petersburg so note that Karpinskij undeniably worked also there around 1825-1828. That again is in conflict with year mark of 1806 on the spoon because at that time he worked in Moscow.
4. Are you still wondering what is not in place?

@Mart
1. Do you really imagine that a Russian peasant (you mentioned it not me) in the early 19th century would use Latin letters or was even able to speak/write in a foreign language using Latin letters??? It was good if he could read and write in Russian. Most of them were bondmen and villeins. Learn your history my good man!
2. I requested some evidence i.e. punches mixed with Cyrillic and Latin letters. As I also said I have never before seen a Russian silver punch mixed with Cyrillic and Latin letters. I repeat: Please show some. Even one will do.
3. I don' understand what you mean with this: "This fashion has been around for only five years. The participants I know are Nikitin, Frolov, Ivanov, Efimov....t What fashion do you mean?

I'm losing interest in this topic because of almost ridiculous claims.
Have a nice evening.

[Mart]

How funny it is when you write about something you don't know very well))) We can take, for example, 100 silversmiths of the 18th century, 100 masters of the 19th century and 100 masters of the 20th century. And we will discuss which of them could write, who was a peasant (Sazikov, Ovchinnikov, Loskutov...), who was a citizen, who was a merchant. Where and when they were born, who their friends and wives were, what products they made, when and from what they died... Are you ready?
I have already said twice that at the beginning of the 19th century, for about five years, several silversmiths wrote their surnames entirely in Latin letters. Most often on regular spoons. I mentioned the names. What else?
I'm sorry, but I don't have time, I have to go learn history, as you said. Good luck!

[Aguest]

:::: If there are 2 spoons from the same maker both with partially obscured marks then the second spoon is being used to inform the first spoon due to the partially obscured marks on both spoons so there should be an exception to the rule because the second spoon is being used to support claims made by the first spoon. ::::::: I understand if someone posts a spoon and then posts a sugar bowl with completely different marks, the objects and the marks are much too different and does nothing but confuse the reader, but in this case the secondary spoon is being used to inform the primary spoon and there should be some tolerance made for pictures of the second object. ::::::::::

[oel]

Indeed Aguest, you are right about these Russian spoons. Nothing wrong with these Russian hallmarks and/or maker's mark in my opinion. A lot is still unclear or poorly documented regarding Russian hallmarks and maker's marks / names.

Peter.

[silverfan]

Hi Kurt,
1. These objects are not 2 different items in the sens of the rule (see contribution by Aguest).
2. The photos show all necessory details.
3. The "smudge" is on the spoon. Another photo will not change this.
4. I think everything is in place. It is misleading to think it could be fake. The 10 table spoons belong to a flatware set of 101 pieces, all with the same coat of arms. Knives, forks and the other spoons have been produced by Thomas Dub and Jarosinski & Vaugoin, Vienna and stored in that company's box. This explains the import marks.

I had allready posted 4 more spoons but my contributions have vanished!? If the admin cannot restore them, I shall renew them!

Hi Mart,
it would be very interesting if you could deliver further examples of mixed brands i.e. by Nikitin, Frolov, Ivanov or Efimov

Regards silverfan

[oel]

Hi silverfan, I believe your "missing" 4 spoons are in the single image forum.

viewforum.php?f=24
Peter.