Debrie cup with an English modification?

[zilverik]

Hi,

This is a cup (height 6,5 cm, diameter 6,5 cm, weight 71,5 gramms) with the mark of Jean Debrie (JDB), dateletter G = 1747, Paris. Assaymastersmark is from Antoine Lescaudel (1744-1750). Perfect cup, but I doubt the quirlandes and the fruits. Jean Debrie' work that I know is more straight. Could it have been modified to the English taste in later years? Or is the cup made this way by Debrie?

Regards,

Zilverik

[oel]

Hi Zilverik,

Could you please show us a clear picture of the French hallmarks and the maker's mark? Thanks.

Oel

[JayT]

I share your scepticism that this is an 18th C object based on its style and the placement and size of the marks. The charge mark struck on the very edge of the bottom of the cup seems odd, and the charge and date marks look oversize compared to the maker's mark. Is the dark spot a centering mark or a discharge mark? Do you think the marks could have been dropped in from another object?
As for style, the combination of rococo and classical elements together on one piece looks 19th C to me, especially the quince fruits in high relief. The quality of the repousse work does not look 18th C French.

[zilverik]

Hi Oel and JayT,

Thanks for your comments and questions. I made new, and I hope better, photo's of the marks. The photo of the aigleshead (last photo under) is near the lip where it should be for an early French cup. This taxmark fits the dateletter and the assayofficemark on the bottom of the cup. The darkspot in the middle of the original photo is indeed the centering mark. All of the marks look good to me. The quality of the cup is also good. It feels good, heavy, nice workmanship. And yet I am afraid that at least part of the chasing is of a later date and maybe even not French. I particular I doubt the fruit part and the quirlandes. The bottompart and the upper part look original to me.

Regards,

Zilverik

[JBA]

I don't doubt that this is an original 18th century cup, but I think both the decoration and probably the foot have been added. Most likely circa 1880 judging by the style. As far as origin is concerned, could be English, Dutch or German later decoration.

In order to accomadate such deep chasing it must have been an excellent gauge!

[zilverik]

Hi,

Thank you for your comment. For me, JBA is right that the decoration is in the middle is put on later. That is: the fruit and the guirlandes. Probably indeed around 1880. But not more. The foot and the top (lip) still look original to me. How come you think that the foot has been added?

Regards,

Zilverik

[zilverik]

Hi,
Did quite some research about this cup. In particular the form and the decoration of the cup. It appears that around the time Debrie worked on this cup it was not unusual that objects had different styles. For example the terrine and saver made bij François-Thomas Germain. The decoration of the cup isn't put on later. The best proof is the inside of the cup. It is gilded (worn) and when there had been changes it should be to notice on the gilded surface inside. The worn inside of the surface is completely intact. So, for me it is all original. Nothing wrong.

[juantotree]

Hi

Is it possible to replace the original images so we can all see the cup?

Martin

[zilverik]

Hi,
Even if it is in theory possible to replace the original images, I have no idea how to do that.

[zilverik]

Hi,
Even if it is in theory possible to replace the original images, I have no idea how to do that.

Hi,

This is a cup (height 6,5 cm, diameter 6,5 cm, weight 71,5 gramms) with the mark of Jean Debrie (JDB), dateletter G = 1747, Paris. Assaymastersmark is from Antoine Lescaudel (1744-1750). Perfect cup, but I doubt the quirlandes and the fruits. Jean Debrie' work that I know is more straight. Could it have been modified to the English taste in later years? Or is the cup made this way by Debrie?

Regards,

Zilverik

https://imgur.com/a/NPoo0aa

[oel]

Hi Zilverik,

You could add the photos in question in a new reply.


Peter.

[zilverik]

Hi Zilverik,

You could add the photos in question in a new reply.


Peter.

url=https://postimg.cc/ftKvB2qp][/url]

[bijoux.expert]

Looking at the cup, it looks all original to me. It would look very strange without the fruits, and as Zilvervik wrote, if the gilding on the inside is intact, the outside is almost certainly ok as well.