Lombardy Polish fork
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- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 am
- Location: Oklahoma
Lombardy Polish fork
This 9 inch fork weighs 78 grams. It bears a maker's mark of "A Riedel" which is not pictured.
With the help of this site, I found the Assayer's Mark is for Josef Sosnkowski, who assayed in Warsaw from 1869 to 1896. The Russian Assay Office in Warsaw, symbolized by the Imperial Eagle Mark on the extreme right, was functioning from 1852-1896. This symbol of that office is often confused with that of Minsk, according to this site. My first question is about the strange mark in the extreme left of the picture above.
The Polish marks were necessary when Poland became independant, and the Polish head mark above means it's .875 silver. There is a tiny "W" within the right side of this Polish head mark for Warsaw. My second question is about the owl mark, which Tardy says is for "Lombard" silver in Poland. Does anyone know exactly what Lombardy silver is? My best guess is that it's the silver that had to be remarked in a census of all the silver in Poland after independence in 1920. Does anyone have a better explanation?
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HI -
Riedel Antoni 1879 - 1908, a Warsaw silversmith
Marks: A. Riedl or AR
Trademark: bell (the mark left of the assay mark)
Ouvrage du lombard? lombard in French is: thriftshop, but I do not know what it is in Poland.
Josef Sosnkowski (IS, Latin) 1852 -1853 1st time assay master
Josef Sosnkowski (IS, Latin) 1860 - ca. 1882 2nd time assay master
Josef Sosnkowski (IS, Cyrillic) ca. 1862 - 1869 3rd time assay master
Josef Sosnkowski (OS, Cyrillic) 1869 -1896 - O = Osip = Josef
hope this helps
Regards
Postnikov
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Riedel Antoni 1879 - 1908, a Warsaw silversmith
Marks: A. Riedl or AR
Trademark: bell (the mark left of the assay mark)
Ouvrage du lombard? lombard in French is: thriftshop, but I do not know what it is in Poland.
Josef Sosnkowski (IS, Latin) 1852 -1853 1st time assay master
Josef Sosnkowski (IS, Latin) 1860 - ca. 1882 2nd time assay master
Josef Sosnkowski (IS, Cyrillic) ca. 1862 - 1869 3rd time assay master
Josef Sosnkowski (OS, Cyrillic) 1869 -1896 - O = Osip = Josef
hope this helps
Regards
Postnikov
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- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 am
- Location: Oklahoma
Wow, Postnikov! It's amazing to see the EXACT same silver marks on your piece. Is the piece you are showing the same pattern on the front as my fork? Is my fork a common Polish pattern that I might have hopes of finding an identical matching fork for? I just have the one piece. I bought it almost as much for the silver marks as for the beauty of the piece itself.
I'm also very appreciative to know what the bell mark stands for and to have working dates for the silversmith. Thanks, Postnikov!
Now we just have to find out what Lombardy silver (the owl mark) is.
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I'm also very appreciative to know what the bell mark stands for and to have working dates for the silversmith. Thanks, Postnikov!
Now we just have to find out what Lombardy silver (the owl mark) is.
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Hi -
if you look at my foto and your foto you can see, that the "old Polish/Russian" stamps are identical, even in the outlines etc. It is very difficult to decide from fotos - but Poland is today the motherland of fakes and the new habit of the forgers is to use original silver and alter the punches to "Russian punches" - the fork with just Polish marks from the 1920´s is nearly worthless, but with "Russian marks"...
The marks on my foto are fakes! If it has been really remarked, why is the remarking punch missing?
Have a very close look at the crisp Polish marks and the funny" Russian "
marks - Mr. Riedel and the assay officer were drunk of course...
Sorry for the bad news
Postnikov
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if you look at my foto and your foto you can see, that the "old Polish/Russian" stamps are identical, even in the outlines etc. It is very difficult to decide from fotos - but Poland is today the motherland of fakes and the new habit of the forgers is to use original silver and alter the punches to "Russian punches" - the fork with just Polish marks from the 1920´s is nearly worthless, but with "Russian marks"...
The marks on my foto are fakes! If it has been really remarked, why is the remarking punch missing?
Have a very close look at the crisp Polish marks and the funny" Russian "
marks - Mr. Riedel and the assay officer were drunk of course...
Sorry for the bad news
Postnikov
.
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- Posts: 67
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 am
- Location: Oklahoma
So do you think the fork itself is old, but all the marks, even the Polish ones, are fake? So the counterfeiter rubbed out whatever original Polish marks were on there? What a shame! I would've loved it with just the original Polish marks. I like the crest/shield on the front.
I appreciate your time and wisdom, Postnikov, so much! I'm sad, but I'd rather know the truth. I can't imagine that a fork this beautiful and grand wouldn't be appreciated in its original state, with just Polish marks.
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I appreciate your time and wisdom, Postnikov, so much! I'm sad, but I'd rather know the truth. I can't imagine that a fork this beautiful and grand wouldn't be appreciated in its original state, with just Polish marks.
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Hi historydetective -
your fork is original, silvercontent 875/1000 (better than the "normal" 800/1000 in use in Poland), the Polish marks in use 1920 - ca. 1947 are original - only the" Russian" marks are very dubious (i.e. faux)!
Enjoy your fork - you have learned something the hard way - but the next time you know more and will catch perhaps a bigger fish....
That is the normal development of collecting - I made the same mistakes when I started! Learning by doing - the more you know the less you suffer.
Happy hunting and no more fakes!
Postnikov
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your fork is original, silvercontent 875/1000 (better than the "normal" 800/1000 in use in Poland), the Polish marks in use 1920 - ca. 1947 are original - only the" Russian" marks are very dubious (i.e. faux)!
Enjoy your fork - you have learned something the hard way - but the next time you know more and will catch perhaps a bigger fish....
That is the normal development of collecting - I made the same mistakes when I started! Learning by doing - the more you know the less you suffer.
Happy hunting and no more fakes!
Postnikov
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Hello,
If you are still interested in learning about the owl's head in the shield mark on your fork ...
"The first owl approval mark, used from 1920 to 1963, was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks.. ..These marks have often been referred to as lombard marks, after the Polish word lombard for pawn or used items."
From the Poland Chapter in - World Hallmarks, Vol.I, Europe
The owl head in the shield you have on your fork was used from 1920-1963.
Hope that completes the picture for you and your fork!
Happy New Year, all!
d
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If you are still interested in learning about the owl's head in the shield mark on your fork ...
"The first owl approval mark, used from 1920 to 1963, was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks.. ..These marks have often been referred to as lombard marks, after the Polish word lombard for pawn or used items."
From the Poland Chapter in - World Hallmarks, Vol.I, Europe
The owl head in the shield you have on your fork was used from 1920-1963.
Hope that completes the picture for you and your fork!
Happy New Year, all!
d
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Hi -
now everything is clear: a silver spoon with polish mark from 1920-46 in Warzaw for silver content 875/1000 and the lombard mark from 1920-63 for used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker´s mark. Some ignorant faker used a faked mark of A. Riedl (1879-1908) and an assay mark from 1880 by Josef (Osipov) Sosnkowski though all the marks together document that the spoon can not be authentic in this form. Silver speaks if you can listen!
Regards
Postnikov
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now everything is clear: a silver spoon with polish mark from 1920-46 in Warzaw for silver content 875/1000 and the lombard mark from 1920-63 for used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker´s mark. Some ignorant faker used a faked mark of A. Riedl (1879-1908) and an assay mark from 1880 by Josef (Osipov) Sosnkowski though all the marks together document that the spoon can not be authentic in this form. Silver speaks if you can listen!
Regards
Postnikov
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Hi,
Hold your horses, I think it is too early to draw any conclusions from these two examples of spoons marked A Riedel and Josef (Osipov) Sosnkowski - assay mark 1880.
According to Whetstone William B., Niklewicz Danusia V., Matula Lindy L. (2009), World Hallmarks, Volume I, Europe, 19th to 21st Centuries, the owl mark was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks.
According to the Hallmarking Law of 1931 (ROZPORZÄ„DZENIE MINISTRA PRZEMYSÅU I HANDLU, Department of Industry and Trade) (In .pdf search google.com---tarcza z glowa sowy- probably the first hit)
A probably not good enough translation...
...The mark was punched on items that
1. according to state regulations do not have registered manufacturers' or hallmarks, and submitted to the pawnshops.
2. are of older origin and according to state regulations do not have registered manufacturers' and hallmarks and are put up for sale. (perhaps second hand dealers, auction houses)
3. Here I am totally lost in translation! I think that I have understood that this is about exemptions from marking.
In practice I think that the assay offices worked as follows:
a) A piece marked 11 lot- the assay office punched it with the lombard mark without the official hallmark (the woman with the number 1-3, according to silver standard). Silver- but not one of the Republic of Poland's registered standards; 940, 875, 800
b) A piece marked 800 of German or Austro-Hungarian origin, perhaps made in Breslau or Cracow (crescent and crown or head of Diana), the assay office punched it with the lombard mark together with the official hallmark (the woman with the number 3).
c) A piece marked 84 according to Russian hallmarking laws (as the example above), the assay office punched it with the lombard mark together with the official hallmark (the woman with the number 2).
It actually hit me that the rules seem to correspond to the French swan-mark (Cygne).
This is my theory, but I am lost in translation, so I would be very grateful if someone helps me with it. Perhaps will you, dnl, or someone else provide us with the omitted parts of the quotation from World Hallmarks above.
I hope that we, once and for all, together will find the truth about the lombard mark (cecha Lombardowa or cecha pomocnicza).
Please provide us with examples!
Best regards/JAKJO
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Hold your horses, I think it is too early to draw any conclusions from these two examples of spoons marked A Riedel and Josef (Osipov) Sosnkowski - assay mark 1880.
According to Whetstone William B., Niklewicz Danusia V., Matula Lindy L. (2009), World Hallmarks, Volume I, Europe, 19th to 21st Centuries, the owl mark was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks.
According to Gradowski, Michal (1994), Znaki na Srebrze:...: Marks on Silver in Poland; "Cecha zwana lombardowa — tarcza z glowa sowy — bita obok normalnych cech probierczych nie opatrzonych zarejestrowana w urzedzie cecha imienna (najczesciej byly to wyroby dawne, sprzedawane na licytacji przez lombardy)." (ibid p. 266)"The first owl approval mark, used from 1920 to 1963, was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks.. ..These marks have often been referred to as lombard marks, after the Polish word lombard for pawn or used items."
From the Poland Chapter in - World Hallmarks, Vol.I, Europe
According to the Hallmarking Law of 1931 (ROZPORZÄ„DZENIE MINISTRA PRZEMYSÅU I HANDLU, Department of Industry and Trade) (In .pdf search google.com---tarcza z glowa sowy- probably the first hit)
A probably not good enough translation...
...The mark was punched on items that
1. according to state regulations do not have registered manufacturers' or hallmarks, and submitted to the pawnshops.
2. are of older origin and according to state regulations do not have registered manufacturers' and hallmarks and are put up for sale. (perhaps second hand dealers, auction houses)
3. Here I am totally lost in translation! I think that I have understood that this is about exemptions from marking.
In practice I think that the assay offices worked as follows:
a) A piece marked 11 lot- the assay office punched it with the lombard mark without the official hallmark (the woman with the number 1-3, according to silver standard). Silver- but not one of the Republic of Poland's registered standards; 940, 875, 800
b) A piece marked 800 of German or Austro-Hungarian origin, perhaps made in Breslau or Cracow (crescent and crown or head of Diana), the assay office punched it with the lombard mark together with the official hallmark (the woman with the number 3).
c) A piece marked 84 according to Russian hallmarking laws (as the example above), the assay office punched it with the lombard mark together with the official hallmark (the woman with the number 2).
It actually hit me that the rules seem to correspond to the French swan-mark (Cygne).
This is my theory, but I am lost in translation, so I would be very grateful if someone helps me with it. Perhaps will you, dnl, or someone else provide us with the omitted parts of the quotation from World Hallmarks above.
I hope that we, once and for all, together will find the truth about the lombard mark (cecha Lombardowa or cecha pomocnicza).
Please provide us with examples!
Best regards/JAKJO
.
Hi Jakjo -
thank you for your claryfication - but it is more or less the same what dnl wrote. The problem is not what the owl mark is for - the problem is why the owl mark is on a piece though the maker/manufacturer is clealy visible!
On eBay you can find numerous Polish/Russian silver of Warzaw silversmiths from 1880-1908 with their trade marks, with the lombard mark and with fineness marks from 1920-63. Sometimes these "objects" are new total fakes, sometimes "upgraded" old silver half fakes or just phantasy- but all are fakes!
I could write a book about Polish-, Romanian-, Bulgarian-, Russian - and Chinese fakes..........
Yesterday an ugly, simple and worthless Polish spoon - overnight an antique, historic and expensive Polish /Russian spoon! It works as you see.....
Regards
Postnikov
.
thank you for your claryfication - but it is more or less the same what dnl wrote. The problem is not what the owl mark is for - the problem is why the owl mark is on a piece though the maker/manufacturer is clealy visible!
On eBay you can find numerous Polish/Russian silver of Warzaw silversmiths from 1880-1908 with their trade marks, with the lombard mark and with fineness marks from 1920-63. Sometimes these "objects" are new total fakes, sometimes "upgraded" old silver half fakes or just phantasy- but all are fakes!
I could write a book about Polish-, Romanian-, Bulgarian-, Russian - and Chinese fakes..........
Yesterday an ugly, simple and worthless Polish spoon - overnight an antique, historic and expensive Polish /Russian spoon! It works as you see.....
Regards
Postnikov
.
Hi
I'm afraid that what JAKJO wrote compared with what dnl wrote is not quiet the same. here is the main difference:
dnl:
... was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks..
and
JAKJO:
... do not have registered manufacturers' or hallmarks, and submitted to the pawnshops.
As you see, there is a notable difference.
.
I'm afraid that what JAKJO wrote compared with what dnl wrote is not quiet the same. here is the main difference:
dnl:
... was placed on used precious metal articles that did not have a manufacturer or maker’s marks..
and
JAKJO:
... do not have registered manufacturers' or hallmarks, and submitted to the pawnshops.
As you see, there is a notable difference.
.
Hi-
please show me some Polish unregistered hallmarks and maker´s marks. If a hall mark or maker´s mark is not registered, it is not known, it is not official and therefore not relevant.
I do not speak Polish - so I can not say if the translations are correct to the written word - for me both give the same sense.
I never speak from "registered" maker´s or hall marks - I take this for granted!
But now all the zigzaging start again. I explained what was to explain.
I hope that the faker´s marks are somewhere registered or in the near future some documents will show up proofing that A. Riedl lived until 1963.
Regards
Postnikov
.
please show me some Polish unregistered hallmarks and maker´s marks. If a hall mark or maker´s mark is not registered, it is not known, it is not official and therefore not relevant.
I do not speak Polish - so I can not say if the translations are correct to the written word - for me both give the same sense.
I never speak from "registered" maker´s or hall marks - I take this for granted!
But now all the zigzaging start again. I explained what was to explain.
I hope that the faker´s marks are somewhere registered or in the near future some documents will show up proofing that A. Riedl lived until 1963.
Regards
Postnikov
.
Indeed,
The marks were not approved of or registered. The polish word translated to registered by me seems to be immensively important.
The Polish assay offices post-1920 did not even recognize items made and hallmarked according to the hallmarking laws of the three empires; Russia, Austria-Hungary and Germany that governed their parts of Poland before 1920.
Even if this is the Russian section of the forum and I know of course that the Russian marks are adding to the value of a piece of silver and that there are lot of fakes, but I wonder if there is someone who will cry out loud that this German marked spoon by Franz Bahner/Mansfelder Silber is a fake.
If you want more examples of by the Polish assay offices "not-registered" marks, I will post them.
Best regards/JAKJO
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And the reason, which I have found in the hallmarking law is that the Republic of Poland, did not recognize foreign maker's marks or hallmarks.the problem is why the owl mark is on a piece though the maker/manufacturer is clearly visible!
The marks were not approved of or registered. The polish word translated to registered by me seems to be immensively important.
The Polish assay offices post-1920 did not even recognize items made and hallmarked according to the hallmarking laws of the three empires; Russia, Austria-Hungary and Germany that governed their parts of Poland before 1920.
Even if this is the Russian section of the forum and I know of course that the Russian marks are adding to the value of a piece of silver and that there are lot of fakes, but I wonder if there is someone who will cry out loud that this German marked spoon by Franz Bahner/Mansfelder Silber is a fake.
If you want more examples of by the Polish assay offices "not-registered" marks, I will post them.
Best regards/JAKJO
.
Hi,
I will try not to debate whether historydetective's fork and your spoon is a fake or not. I admit that the assay marks looks a bit dubious to me.
...and if it is, I must admit that it is a very good fake of 1880-ish Warsaw piece of cutlery. You provided the information about Antoni Riedel yourself.
Best regards/JAKJO
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I will try not to debate whether historydetective's fork and your spoon is a fake or not. I admit that the assay marks looks a bit dubious to me.
...and if it is, I must admit that it is a very good fake of 1880-ish Warsaw piece of cutlery. You provided the information about Antoni Riedel yourself.
Best regards/JAKJO
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Maybe it helps if we take a new look at historical facts. There is no state called Poland between 1795 and 1918. The whole area is split between Germany, Russia and Austria-Hungaria. Isn't it obvious that the silver objects were marked with the respective country's marks according to their regulations?
When the second Polish state achieved its independence in 1918, the Polish authorities wanted to use their own polish marks. From their point of view the old German, Russian and Austrian silver marks were as from 1918 considered foreign marks, i.e. unregistered marks. What to do? Use the owl punch! Is this explanation too simple, or?
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When the second Polish state achieved its independence in 1918, the Polish authorities wanted to use their own polish marks. From their point of view the old German, Russian and Austrian silver marks were as from 1918 considered foreign marks, i.e. unregistered marks. What to do? Use the owl punch! Is this explanation too simple, or?
.
Hi-
if it is true that the Polish assay office did not accept (recognize has a complete different meaning!) foreign silver hallmarked with the marks of the origin country and remarked it with the lombard mark and their own silvercontent mark - why is the remark stamp missing?
Your "Warzaw piece of cutlery" is authentic, origin unknown to me because of the detail photo, only the Riedel mark is a fake! You are not sure if the mark is a fake - at least it is a very good fake in your eyes.....A little difference. I can only warn or point at dubious things - if you prefer to collect fakes it is OK for me.
When I was young, a fake was a fake and everybody shyed away. Today you distingwish between very good fakes and not so good fakes.....
Your German spoon is authentic! Do you think ernestly that some Polish assay guy try to decipher the F. Bahner mark or research over whole Europe? The remark stamp is missing.
Now this thread is getting more and more away from what it started!
historydetective wanted only to know what the marks on his spoon are. This question is answered.
I personally are not interested in Polish silver or how it is marked - only in silver under Russian rule. The list of Warzaw silversmiths was written by blakstone for me (sazikov2000) - we had a very productive discussion about this matter. Something I miss on this forum sometimes.
Many thanks for your explanations
Regards
Postnikov
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if it is true that the Polish assay office did not accept (recognize has a complete different meaning!) foreign silver hallmarked with the marks of the origin country and remarked it with the lombard mark and their own silvercontent mark - why is the remark stamp missing?
Your "Warzaw piece of cutlery" is authentic, origin unknown to me because of the detail photo, only the Riedel mark is a fake! You are not sure if the mark is a fake - at least it is a very good fake in your eyes.....A little difference. I can only warn or point at dubious things - if you prefer to collect fakes it is OK for me.
When I was young, a fake was a fake and everybody shyed away. Today you distingwish between very good fakes and not so good fakes.....
Your German spoon is authentic! Do you think ernestly that some Polish assay guy try to decipher the F. Bahner mark or research over whole Europe? The remark stamp is missing.
Now this thread is getting more and more away from what it started!
historydetective wanted only to know what the marks on his spoon are. This question is answered.
I personally are not interested in Polish silver or how it is marked - only in silver under Russian rule. The list of Warzaw silversmiths was written by blakstone for me (sazikov2000) - we had a very productive discussion about this matter. Something I miss on this forum sometimes.
Many thanks for your explanations
Regards
Postnikov
.
And this is my translation of Polish regulations (HK — January, 2010)
...The mark was punched/used for:
1. On items offered for public trading by pawnshops, which did not have registered manufacturers’ hallmark affixed next to the required state mark.
2. On older items, allowed to be publicly traded which did not have registered manufacturers’ hallmark affixed next to the required state mark.
3. For marking of older items, which were allowed to be publicly traded without the obligation of marking and stamping
.
...The mark was punched/used for:
1. On items offered for public trading by pawnshops, which did not have registered manufacturers’ hallmark affixed next to the required state mark.
2. On older items, allowed to be publicly traded which did not have registered manufacturers’ hallmark affixed next to the required state mark.
3. For marking of older items, which were allowed to be publicly traded without the obligation of marking and stamping
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