Falsifications of Russian pieces are often to find. Normally they are easy to recognize by the bad quality . The presented box from my collection is of very good quality, better enamel I haven`t seen yet. But nevertheless: The fear remains to have bought an expensive falsification . Therefore my question: are there also falsifications of such a high-quality work? Any experience? The diamonds are genuine, this I have tested.
A joy to learn here.
Russian enamel box with diamonds; genuine?
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Silbersammler
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:55 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Russian enamel box with diamonds; genuine?
HI -
First question: NO!
Second question: YES!
For further informations check the threads with many examples on this site.
We do not discuss counterfaits, lookalikes, contemporary made objects and poor fakes here....
Regards
Postnikov
First question: NO!
Second question: YES!
For further informations check the threads with many examples on this site.
We do not discuss counterfaits, lookalikes, contemporary made objects and poor fakes here....
Regards
Postnikov
-
Silbersammler
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:55 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Russian enamel box with diamonds; genuine?
@ Postnikov
Thanks for your answer, which surprises me however. I did not see yet all contributions in this forum, but read nevertheless already much. A such box had not been discussed yet, or? Falsification? So an enamel with diamonds? How do you deduce? It would very helpfully be for me, if you tell me your arguments. Thank you.
Thanks for your answer, which surprises me however. I did not see yet all contributions in this forum, but read nevertheless already much. A such box had not been discussed yet, or? Falsification? So an enamel with diamonds? How do you deduce? It would very helpfully be for me, if you tell me your arguments. Thank you.
Re: Russian enamel box with diamonds; genuine?
Hi,
Postnikov answered both your questions. 1. Most fakes are of low quality and/or the marks are not full proof and /or dubious, and the fakes are getting better. Your box carries the three-element Russian Domestic Hallmarks 1908-1927 oval shape > 2zl, and the Assay office letter for Leningrad. Does the removable part carry a three-element domestic hallmark, or if moveable but attached, a compound hallmark? What do you know about the box provenance? Like Postnikov wrote, most questions we can answer our self, but we must be willing to learn. Regarding your second question, yes. I know because I have bought two Russian silver items and both, to put it nicely turned out to be dubious. To avoid a third mistake I invested money in books, about Russian silver and silver hallmarks, and read the threads in the 925 forum. However I still will consult (privately) an expert on Russian silver and follow his advise, before I make a commitment.
Regards,
Oel
Postnikov answered both your questions. 1. Most fakes are of low quality and/or the marks are not full proof and /or dubious, and the fakes are getting better. Your box carries the three-element Russian Domestic Hallmarks 1908-1927 oval shape > 2zl, and the Assay office letter for Leningrad. Does the removable part carry a three-element domestic hallmark, or if moveable but attached, a compound hallmark? What do you know about the box provenance? Like Postnikov wrote, most questions we can answer our self, but we must be willing to learn. Regarding your second question, yes. I know because I have bought two Russian silver items and both, to put it nicely turned out to be dubious. To avoid a third mistake I invested money in books, about Russian silver and silver hallmarks, and read the threads in the 925 forum. However I still will consult (privately) an expert on Russian silver and follow his advise, before I make a commitment.
Regards,
Oel
Re: Russian enamel box with diamonds; genuine?
Dear Silbersammler!
I do not want to be personal - even if it might sound like that. What I have to say is the experience of over 20 years of collecting Russian and Baltic silver - all serious collectors did it the same way - otherwise you buy 4 or 5 objects (all fakes of course!) - and at the end you loose your passion for silver and a lot of money. Do it our way and you will have a lot of fun. Besides you will get nearly immune against fraud. Here is my advice: Start slow. Do your homework: consisting of reading the right books, go to museums or exhibitions wherever/whenever you can, listen to other collectors who know more (on this site are a lot!), touch, feel and compare what you see, listen to your common sense and use your brain (as often as possible!). Don´t be greedy! My personal technique: Touch, think and decide (yes or no). If it is too good to be true - run. If it is even a little dubious -run. If you do not know what it is - run. Knowin what you do is the key to success!
Back to your box:
You start with 3 steps - Who is the seller, how does it look, what is the price. (you always buy the seller first and afterwards the object!).
As a serios collector who had done his homework you will take the box (feel) and look (see) what it is (purpose) and how it is made (quality, markmanship). Next you have a look (see) at the marks to recognise the country of origin (see+brain). With one glance you recognice the for you typical Russian marks (townmark, kokoshnik, silver content and silversmith/artist/maker). Now you start to investigate if the marks are correct and what they tell you (see, common sense , experience, brain, memory).
The townmark: the townmark of St. Petersburg is as you know the Greek letter alpha, what you see is a Latin a. The first red warning light is shining.
The kokoshnik mark: the kokoshnikmark tells you that the object must have been made in the years 1908 - 1926, but you can narrow the date down to 1908-1917 because you know everything about Russian history (brain, memory) and the Revolution 1917. After the Revolution there was no use for siversmiths, most had fled, where shot, deported to Sibiria or worked in communistic kombinats, just to survive. You take a closer look at the kokoshnik and realise that the mark (head and the kokoshnik) is not as it should be (brain). The second red warning lamp is burning.
The silver content number: you know that objects for the "less expensive" markets were 84 Zolotniki, 88 Zolotniki was for the "more expensive" market. The silver content for this object is correct - but the font of the numbers are not (brain)! Third red warning lamp starts to burn.
The silversmith/maker/artist: Cyr. ЯР= Lat. JaA There are two JaA`s known: one in Moscow, working in 1740, mark known, name unknown. It could not be him. The second is from St. Petersburg, his mark is Я. Рwith a dot between Я and Р! It could not be him too because he only fabricated Oklads for icons and other religious articles in the year 1825. His mark is known, his name not (brain). The fourth red warning lamp is on.
You quickly check if the body and the lid are marked, also the decorating parts if they were fixed on the box and not part of the box! What do you see....? The ruby is glass, the cabochons are glass, the diamonds on the eagle and the eagle are a joke - all the diamonds are set in silver (!!) (common sense, brain). Are the diamonds real or glass? Do you have an expertise of some juweller whom you can trust? All the decorations are casts. The fifth red warning lamp is burning + blinking + a horn is blowing.
Etc, etc, etc.
After a quick glance at the marks someone who had his homework done would have stopped the negotiations!
Maybe it is better to start with spoons until you know what you are doing (this is no sarcasm just a try to help you. We all did our mistakes but if you catch a fake spoon it is no big deal and your financial loss is like zero.
Regards and happy hunting in the future!
Postnikov
I do not want to be personal - even if it might sound like that. What I have to say is the experience of over 20 years of collecting Russian and Baltic silver - all serious collectors did it the same way - otherwise you buy 4 or 5 objects (all fakes of course!) - and at the end you loose your passion for silver and a lot of money. Do it our way and you will have a lot of fun. Besides you will get nearly immune against fraud. Here is my advice: Start slow. Do your homework: consisting of reading the right books, go to museums or exhibitions wherever/whenever you can, listen to other collectors who know more (on this site are a lot!), touch, feel and compare what you see, listen to your common sense and use your brain (as often as possible!). Don´t be greedy! My personal technique: Touch, think and decide (yes or no). If it is too good to be true - run. If it is even a little dubious -run. If you do not know what it is - run. Knowin what you do is the key to success!
Back to your box:
You start with 3 steps - Who is the seller, how does it look, what is the price. (you always buy the seller first and afterwards the object!).
As a serios collector who had done his homework you will take the box (feel) and look (see) what it is (purpose) and how it is made (quality, markmanship). Next you have a look (see) at the marks to recognise the country of origin (see+brain). With one glance you recognice the for you typical Russian marks (townmark, kokoshnik, silver content and silversmith/artist/maker). Now you start to investigate if the marks are correct and what they tell you (see, common sense , experience, brain, memory).
The townmark: the townmark of St. Petersburg is as you know the Greek letter alpha, what you see is a Latin a. The first red warning light is shining.
The kokoshnik mark: the kokoshnikmark tells you that the object must have been made in the years 1908 - 1926, but you can narrow the date down to 1908-1917 because you know everything about Russian history (brain, memory) and the Revolution 1917. After the Revolution there was no use for siversmiths, most had fled, where shot, deported to Sibiria or worked in communistic kombinats, just to survive. You take a closer look at the kokoshnik and realise that the mark (head and the kokoshnik) is not as it should be (brain). The second red warning lamp is burning.
The silver content number: you know that objects for the "less expensive" markets were 84 Zolotniki, 88 Zolotniki was for the "more expensive" market. The silver content for this object is correct - but the font of the numbers are not (brain)! Third red warning lamp starts to burn.
The silversmith/maker/artist: Cyr. ЯР= Lat. JaA There are two JaA`s known: one in Moscow, working in 1740, mark known, name unknown. It could not be him. The second is from St. Petersburg, his mark is Я. Рwith a dot between Я and Р! It could not be him too because he only fabricated Oklads for icons and other religious articles in the year 1825. His mark is known, his name not (brain). The fourth red warning lamp is on.
You quickly check if the body and the lid are marked, also the decorating parts if they were fixed on the box and not part of the box! What do you see....? The ruby is glass, the cabochons are glass, the diamonds on the eagle and the eagle are a joke - all the diamonds are set in silver (!!) (common sense, brain). Are the diamonds real or glass? Do you have an expertise of some juweller whom you can trust? All the decorations are casts. The fifth red warning lamp is burning + blinking + a horn is blowing.
Etc, etc, etc.
After a quick glance at the marks someone who had his homework done would have stopped the negotiations!
Maybe it is better to start with spoons until you know what you are doing (this is no sarcasm just a try to help you. We all did our mistakes but if you catch a fake spoon it is no big deal and your financial loss is like zero.
Regards and happy hunting in the future!
Postnikov
-
Silbersammler
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:55 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Russian enamel box with diamonds; genuine?
Dear Oel, dear Postnikov
thank you very much for your answers. It is very important for me to get the advice of a expert in russian silver, because I have more of those items.
I tried to post a private mail to Postnikov, but I have technical problems, it seems. Can you send me a short PM so I can answer and send you my post?
Thanks a lot!!
thank you very much for your answers. It is very important for me to get the advice of a expert in russian silver, because I have more of those items.
I tried to post a private mail to Postnikov, but I have technical problems, it seems. Can you send me a short PM so I can answer and send you my post?
Thanks a lot!!