Two Russian Vessels

[ConstantineG]

Hello,

I am new to this forum, and I would like to share two recent finds with you and asking your views on these vessels. The fist silver object is a tea glass holder with Art Nouveau scrolls and flowers. It is marked at the bottom with Kokoshnik mark and IL initials I think Ivan Lebedkin was the esaayer. The other mark is the maker's mark whic is NT and unknown to me, anyone know the maker?
The other one is a milk jug with a bird and flowers which resembles me a Japanese kacho-ga scenes, I think this is also in Jugend Stil and it bears the hallmark of Kokoshnik with the same assayers initials:IL, I think this also stands for Ivan Lebedkin. And the marke's mark which repeats on the spout as well is KF , if it is not the initials of K.Faberge, I shall be pleased to know who the maker is....
These vessels once belonged to my wife's great grand father and now the part of her family heirloom.
Here are the images. Your views shall be much appreciated,
Cheers,
Constantine

[piette]

Hi-
I may be wrong, as I am only just a beginner to Russian silver myself but:
First item:(Tea glass holder)
Yes, this is marked with the 1899-1908 Kokoshnik and bears the assayers mark of ИЛ for Ivan Lebedkin of Moscow (although this could also be ИЛ for Yakov Lyapimov??? I'm sure someone else will be more informative here!)
I cannot find any information on the maker 'НТ' although these could perhaps be latin letters, as opposed to cyrillic.

Onto the milk jug:
I don't think these are the initials of Karl Faberge, as Faberge only used the 'КФ' mark on very small items, where it was not possible to fit the full 'Фаберже' mark - or at least, this is my understanding.
I cannot make out the first initial on the kokoshnik - but the second looks like Л.

Sorry I could not be of more help here - I'm sure other more knowledgable forum members will be able to tell you a lot more!

Regards,
Piette

[Qrt.S]

Welcome to the forum. You have two very lovely things in Russian Jugend/Modern Style style which is not so common. The creamer is most likely made by Karl Fendt 1883-1908 but not by Fabergé as piette also anticipated. The assayer's mark is difficult to read but I anticipate it reads Ivan Lebedkin 1898-1908 in Moscow (There are hardly no other alternatives).

The tea glass holder is made by Nikolai Filippov Tarabrov 1893-197 also in Moscow. The assayer is the same Ivan Lebedkin. Try to find a glass to the holder. Unfortunately it might be difficult.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Please remember in future postings that only one item is permitted per topic.

See: Posting Requirements

Trev.

[Postnikov]

Hi -

please could you show photos of the marks on the handles where they are fixed to the corpus, (the red circles in the photos).

Regards

Postnikov

[Postnikov]

Hi -
sorry - forgot to post the photos!



Regards
Postnikov

[ConstantineG]

Dear Members of the forum,

Piette&Qrt.S, This has been very informative to me, thanks a lot. Karl Fendt is likely the original maker of the jug. I must make a deeper search about K. Fendt. Also for the possible essayer. Dear Moderator, thanks for your understanding, as a newby I must have read the forum rules...Won't repeat it in the future. Postnikov, I shall post the images of the marks on the lower ends of the handles, and will be pleased to know if these have significant importance, or indicators of originality, if my memory serves me right these are special marks placed by dealers or the ones who commissioned the items?
Best wishes,

Constantine

[Qrt.S]

No no no not at all. The thing is that on a Russian silver object every detachable part must carry marks but not by the dealers. Therefore there must be marks on the handle, on body, on the bottom and on the spout. By the way is there any marks on the spout? It is a detachable part?

[ConstantineG]

Hello ,

I am not very familiar with Russian silver, however I collected English silver and likely a similar rule is valid for English silver, every part is marked to show it is made in silver and the same maker as you know. As for the milk jug the spout seems deteachable and it carries two marks which I enclosed a photo showing these marks.I will take some close ups for handle end marks tomorrow.
Thanks a lot, cheers,

[piette]

Hi Constantine -
In my opinion, the marks on the handle are as expected - Additional makers mark with the small kokoshinik mark. The small kokoshnik is the little circular mark and this was used on parts of items that were detachable when an item was made in 2 or more parts.

Regards,
Piette

[Postnikov]

Hi ConstatineG -

While looking closer at your creamer , the marks as well as the quality I am a little in doubts about the real manufacturer. That´s why I asked for additional marks on certain spaces!
Please have a close look at your creamer, exspecially on the marks.



The maker Fend (Fent) Karl Frantzewisch had a complete different mark, КФ in an oval cartouche without dot!

Fabergé has in Moscow different marks, depending on the size and quality of the objects!



Please look at the mark К.Ф in a rectangle with rounded corners cartouche with dot!

A little explanation to Fabergé´s work: In St. Petersburg his clients were the Court, the Russian and European Nobility, rich citizens, local and from abroad. So the output of his workshops was top notch with a sideglance to Europe (Cartier, Boucheron - both had shops in St. Petersburg). Moscow was complete different: the clients were not so "decadent", more "burchoise" - normal but rich. They prefered the upcoming Jugendstil, but mostly the typical Russian designs and patterns (like foliage, flowers, birds etc.). In one word: St. Petersburg was tremendous rich - Moscow was normal rich. Most of the cutlery and flatware were manufactured industriallyin Moscow - not by wellknown masters - you can often find a spoon, knife or fork in simple design with his Moscow mark К. Ф, really nothing special or artistic! Just houshold goods made by several others too.
To find a "simple" creamer (the rest is unfortunately missing) was absolute normal and not worth a heart attack - until the Fabergé hype began. Now it is a treasure. Why? No serious collector can understand. Objects in this line from Morozov or Gratschev, Ovtschinnikov or Nemirov- Kolodkin are often better made.
Without seeing and toching it in person - I am 90% sure that it is Fabergé from Moscow! A nice piece with a nice history. The same your tea glass holder - when you compare the quality - it is nearly better.

Enjoy your find and do not sell it!

Regards
Postnikov

[piette]

Hi Postnikov,

It is very interesting to know this information. A good history lesson.
I was under the impression that Faberge only used the small КФ mark on items that were too small to comfortably fit the full Фаберже mark on? I assume there will be exceptions to this rule - is this just an exception?
How is it common to see larger items with just the КФ mark?

Regards,
Piette

[Postnikov]

Hi piette -

it depends what you understand under small articles. All the industrially massproduced cutlery, cane grips, umbrella grips etc. made in Moscow were marked К. Ф The better things like enamel spoons, small enamel frames etc. were marked full. All silversmiths tried to mark their objects clear but discreet. By the way they had punches in different sizes they used where appropriate.
Because of the many fakes circulating, everybody thinks Fabergé always marked in full with eagle etc. The contrary is more often the case! There were only different marks in St. Petersburg, Moscow, Kiev, Odessa and London. Kiev and Odessa got the marks of the town where it was manufactured!

Regards
Postnikov

[ConstantineG]

Dear Postnikov & Piette,

I would like to express my deepest gratitude to your efforts to shed a light on the provenance of my m/jug. It is amazing to see such a wonderful information on the maker. Yes I do agree with you on small items and bigger items were stamped in different way where as quality products were having more flamboyant marks. I here by enclosed the images of handle end marks, which I have just taken. It seems to me these marks bear some numbers rather than figures, if I am not mistaken. And yes I took a closer look on the marks again, it is evident that K and F has a dot in between which makes me sure depending on your wonderful information, about Karl Faberge. Of course I won't sell them, these are inherited from my wife's great grand father's and she is very picky about them. As far as I know my wife's grand parents belonged to the provincial nobility before the revolution and lived in a town which is very far from St.Petersburg but relatively closer to Moscow. Therefore those items were likely purchased from the Moscow shops/dealers in the turn of the century. It is always great to find such items have both history and artistic value, for me, I collect watches and my ineterst on silver started when I bought my first silver case pocket watch which was an English make fusee. However as an arthistorian and academician every single object with a history around me gives me a kinda impact.
Thank you dear members of the forum for your wonderful help. As soon as I discover silver objects at our house I shall be delighted to share them with you.

I wish you A Merry XMas and a very very Happy and Prosperous New Year......

Best wishes,
Constantine

Teaholder's handle

Creamer's handle

[Qrt.S]

I'd like to add some information regarding this initial КФ. These initials cause minor problems. You can find it on items in several variations i.e. КФ, К.Ф or К.Ф. and with cartouhces in oval, round, rectangular and also rectangular with rounded corners etc. Some of the used by Fabergé. The one showed by Postnikov is #2603 in PL and claimed to be Karl Fendt. That is not necessary so. It can be one of Fabergé's punches. But, the main thing is that Fabergé used this КФ with or without dots in small objects and on objects with limited space to punch a mark. e.g. work in filigree, hatpins, rings etc... In addition a small item is not a tea glass holder, a creamer or any object at that size. Not even flatware are small items. Small items are ear rings, rings, hatpins, brooches, jetons, small crosses, jewelery and that sort of objects. Once I saw in an auction house (of course) a samovar marked with several КФ here and there. It was claimed to be made by Fabergé because of this КФ which was more that ridiculous....a samovar a small object!? Always and I mean always when you see this КФ mark on objects small or especially big once it is a good reason to stop for a moment and think hard. Maybe the maker is somebody else than Fabergé like Fendt or....?

[Postnikov]

Dear Qrt.S -

I understand what you mean - but Fabergé in Moscow was a little different from Fabergé in St. Petersburg. One always think some famous gold- and silversmiths sitting in their workshops and producing exeptionell works of art. In St. Petersburg (the capitel of Russia and the seat of the CZar and his enturage) it was like that. But Moscow was "province" with complete different clients: they were not dekadent more little burgeois middleclass citizens with complete different claims. It was nothing special to buy your flatware or hollowware at Fabergé´s instead of at Gratschev´s - the price was the same. There was nothing glamerous abut it. The many cutlery and tea-coffee sets I have seen from the Moscow branche were total unspectakular - simple design and decor but usual quality - like the other concurrents Morozov and Gratschev. Do not forget, this articles were no special commissions - they were simple industially manufactured consumer goods - not presents for the Czar! And sorry - nearly all I have seen were only marked with К.Ф.Don´t forget that Fabergé fabricated copper pans and pots during WWI ...I think without logo and eagle :-)

Without having seen this creamer I am not 100% sure but let´s say 80%.....from the distance.

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

Your absolutely right dear Postnikov, that was the case. We carry the same opinion. It's just the use of the #¤%#" КФ that bothers me. I have earlier understood that when Fabergé punched КФ in St Peterburg he punched К.Ф (dot in middle only) and in Moscow К.Ф. (middle dot and end dot) in oval or rounded corner cartouce. But that's not necessary the case. Please look att P#1318 #1319. They are St Petersburg's marks!!! And no dot!!! There is also #1320 which refers to my earlier statement regarding the use of the letter K in Fabergé's mark. My conclusion is that this КФ with or without dots is not without very careful investigations always Fabergé....definitely not! The problem is also that it is know that there exists the mark КФ but it is not necessarily known how it is in all cases. An unknown master probably (?).

And as you state: "Without seeing the creamer...." It is always difficult to make absolute statements based on pictures and sometimes even lousy ones....

[ConstantineG]

Dear Postnikov and Qrt.S,

Thank you very much for the constructive argument. Since the makers with the same initials are more than one and employed similar initials-I learned Faberge employed a couple of unkown or known makers in his workshops-it is often uneasy to make a sharp judgement from the initials. Actually whether a Faberge or not, the quality of carving and depiction of flowers, scrolls and the bird is considerable fine due to the fact that it is near and I can see it directly and touch it and depending on my humble art historian background. Such confusions may happen in other silver items made by different countries as UK. Therefore I think practice makes perfect.
Best wishes,
Constantine