ЕП and "I. KOPF." mark on a spoon

[R ingo]

Hello,
can someone help me with the marks on this spoon? The spoon has the Kokoshnik mark from St. Petersburg from 1908-1926 and the Estonian lion and 875 mark from 1924-1939. The Kokoshnik mark messures 6 mm x 3 mm.

Furthermore it is marked with the makers mark (?) ЕП ( I think it is indeet the same ЕП mark like on piettes С. П. БУ ГЪ spoon http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=23087" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and the mark "I. KOPF."

The spoon is one of 3 complete identic spoons, also in ornamentation, but the others have Moskow Kokoshnik marks and makers mark HП in square and oval mark (it looks like one mark is probably re-punched) and also Estonian lion and 875, but not "I. KOPF.".

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Qrt.S]

Very interesting marks and there we have this strange "ЕП-mark" again. I have started to wonder whether it means something else that Jegor Pankratjev who undoubtedly also marked ЕП in an oval shield in St Petersburg 1898-1908, but....? The year 1908 was the first year of the right looking kokoshink but also the last year for Pankratjev. Anyway, the measures for the kokoshnik seems to match and it looks rather good to me. There are two sizes for this mark 4x2 and 6x3. Your mark has the latter measures.

Johan Kopf 1867-1930 was a famous Estonian goldsmith who marked i many ways his maker's mark of which this I.KOPF. is one. Nonetheless, Estonia became independent in 1918 and the marks on your spoon the lion and the fineness mark 875 was used 1924-1940. It seems to me that your spoon was remarked in the independent Estonia rather late. Remarking was not uncommon in new independent states. That happen in Poland too and also in some other countries.

The strange thing with the marks is that IF Pankratjev made this spoon in St Petersburg, why is there another maker's mark I.KOPF on it ??? I find this to be a strange combination of marks indeed. That too makes me wonder among some other things about the correct meaning of this ЕП-mark. Is it a maker's mark at all?

Well Ringo, I don't know what more to say about this for the time being. Let's see if you get some other opinions.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry Josef Kopf of course

[Postnikov]

Hi Ringo -

here are the known different marks of J.(I.) Kopf (1896-1930) -just to remember:



The "normal" explanation would be:
Russian spoon, Kokoshnik St. Petersburg 1908-1926, maker ЕП (Pankratev E.G. 1898-1908), brought/sold to Estonia/Tallinn and rehallmarked (1924-1939) - Estonia had no import mark. So far correct. But now the mark of J.(I.) KOPF. (1896-1930), in use until 1928, one of the best if not the best Estonian silversmiths with wellknown own production. Is he the vendor? No! That was not the quality he would sell - and there are no pieces known with his mark as distributor. Only own fabrication!
Now let´s collect the facts:
Pankratev made the spoon 1908, it was assayed in the same year (1908) in St. Petersburg - than brought/sold to Estonia. 16 (!) years later (1924) it was marked with the Estonian marks ( let´s say "import" marks or rehallmarking by someone who did not like Russian marks - often done by the new, proud and independant Baltic people!). And than the mark of J. (I.) KOPF. He could neither be the maker nor the distributor! The only sense I see is to dazzle the buyer - more marks - more authenticity!
You know my attunement to this ЕП spoons in their different optics. My opinion is known!
See your last contribution: two Kokoshnikmarks to compare - even with naked eyes you can see the differences.
Now make your own conclusions...

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

There is much truth and logic in Postnikovs message but there is one thing i'd like you to memorize. We are talking about a hundred years old or older punches. Please keep in mind that they were all handmade. That means that there are not two absolutely 100% similar marks because every punch is unique because it is handmade! Therefore there are minor variations in the hallmarks shown here and in general. In addition the size of the original mark is a few millimeters that would be about 2-4 letter in this text depending on the size of the monitor you are looking at. That is not much. But what we see here are enormous magnifications of the marks up to 10-15 CENTIMETERS! Marks at that size easily reveal every single difference and variation and whatever between the marks for obvious reasons.

Moreover, the assayer worked like a conveyor belt, he hit mark after mark, hundreds of mark on daily basis. Do you think he cared whether the hit hallmark was a bit aslant or sometimes was a bad strike causing e.g. a double stroke mark? Kindly keep also in mind that the surface on the object where to punch the mark could be plain, convex, concave, limited space etc. Do you think he always could keep the angle? Do you think he always hit with the same force? Don't you think the punch with respect to the enormous amount of strikes became worn, deformed and sometimes even broke and a new punch had to be ordered from the Mint. Do you really think that this new punch was exactly similar to the old one?

What I'm trying to tell you is that two absolutely similar marks do not exist,they all vary in outlook, not much but, anyway, they vary due to the above mentioned reason!
Ringo, this is also an answer to you other thread with the older kokoshnik.

[Postnikov]

Hi all -
Now we have a solution - there is light in the tunnel!



Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

Nice dog you have Postnikov. Have you tried the same with putting a flashlight to your ear?

[Postnikov]

Hi -
apropos head. You got off topic again. We all wait for your wise decision re Ringo´s last spoon. Is it fake or not? You as master of the different punch sizes must know...

Regards
Postnikov

[admin]

You got off topic again.

You are both off topic. End this petty squabbling, it is inappropriate for the forum, counter to the spirit of the website and in violation of the Posting Requirements.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry admin, want happen again.
Have a nice evening
Qrt.S

[Postnikov]

Hi -

The Experts sacrafice their own free time to participate and do so out of their love for Russian Silver and the forum, so they should be treated with kindness.

I still miss your valuable answer re spoon!

Regards
Postnikov

[admin]

Qrt.S, thank you

Postnikov,
Your meaning is unclear, the response seems to be stating the you feel you have been mistreated. I suspect this is more a problem of languages than intention. Would you please restate your message in different words, I would like to be sure of your meaning.

Thanks, Tom

[Postnikov]

Hi Tom -

please delete my membership on this forum!

Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

Well, first of all where is your sense of humor now dear Postnikov?

Secondly, the world is not always black or white and there is not always an absolute answer to everything not even to marks on a Russian spoon. Moreover, as an example nobody seems to know with certainty about the С.П.БУРГЪ mark. I'm not either sure that this EП mark in this connection would be Jegor Pankratjev and there is a lot of unsolved and doubtful other matters regarding Russian silver marking and marks.

Thirdly I have made questions to you that you have not bothered to answer- The last one about the meaning of the red rectangles and the request of showing a genuine kokshnik mark etc. Do not make any demands on me. However, I have stated all I know about the spoon i. e. I don't know for sure is it genuine or not. I'm afraid that there are both cons and pros about its authenticity. Nonetheless, I'm fully aware of my limitations meaning that I cannot know it all, sorry for that.

[R ingo]

Hello Postnikov and Qrt.S,

I thank you both very much for your help and for the very interesting insight in this difficulty. I would be glad, and I am sure a lot of other members think also, when both of you in future will help with your great experience.

Kind regards,
Ringo

[Dad]

Hi, All.

I think, it is important.
In the book at Postnikova-Loseva the mark of J.Kopf meets among marks of the Petersburg masters too. Hence, mark J.Kopf and Petersburg's assay mark (1908) can be together and it is normal. Who is J.Kopf - seller or silversmith in this case? I don't known.))



Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

As we know, J(I). Kopf was one of the best Estonian silversmith´s and probably sold his merchandise from Reval (Tallinn) to St. Petersburg. As one of the Baltic provinces Estonia at that time belonged to Russia - so no import marks were necessary. In the article "The Russian spoon" I show a dining set (spoon, fork, knife) from the Baroness Agnes Fersen from Hapsal (Estonia) with marks from St. Petersburg and Reval silversmiths. It was usual to buy where you just could find what you wanted in Russia and its provinces - the same pattern, the same proofmarks and the same quality, but different smiths. Please always have the historic background in mind.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, Zolotnik.

Certainly. I know who such Kopf and where it worked. But I repeat. The spoon have storing in the State historical museum in Moscow with punch of J.Kopf and Petersburg's assay mark (1908). It is the fact about which writes Postnikova-Loseva in the book.

Variants:
1. J (I). Kopf has shop in capital Petersburg (similar as I. Marshak from Kiev)
2. During War (1914) assay office has been moved to Petrograd
3..4..5.. etc.

Best reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

We speak from two spoons if I can follow.

1) Ringo´s spoon with its strange marks which by no means and by no rules fit together.

a) If ЕП really existed, the I.KOPF. mark (as maker) and the Estonian marks are sensless
b) If J (I).KOPF was the maker, the Estonian marks are correct but the Russian marks are sensless

My personal opinion: This are the fake marks of some faker who thought: more marks - more acceptance. There exist many fakes with Latvian or Estonian marks together with the Russian marks on the "market". Always marks from the best smiths!

2) The spoon PL mentions (I have not seen it, so I can not say much).

a) J (I). Kopf never had a shop in St. Petersburg
b) PL always had big difficulties with the names of Baltic (provinces) silversmiths. Reason: when the German population left 1938 the country - most of the documents and nearly all (exept church silver) silver was taken with them to Germany and is today stored in the city of Bremen. PL could not recherche files being out of country.....

Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
some news about J. Kopf. By the way, there is a book written about his work - as soon as I get it I will report. Maybe some light in this case.





Regards
Zolotnik