Louis XV or Hanau?

[Wayan]

This double handled silver bowl which measures just over 7 inches (17cm) in width (handle to handle) has me stumped.

Is this period Louis XV, or is it late 19th century Hanau, possibly by Georg Roth whose firm often imitated early French silver hallmarks?

The internet does not seem to offer much information on 18th century French hallmarks.
Oddly enough this bowl also bears a 950% guarantee mark (Minerva).

Also peculiar is the engraved inscription on the lip of the bowl which reads, “J. P. DE COSSE” and the date 1738. To my eye the lettering of that inscription appears appropriate for 1738 date.

J. P. de Cosse is almost certainly Jean Paul Cosse, (Jean Paul Timoleon de Cosse-Brissac) 1698-1784, who was a Duke of Brissac and a general under Louis XVI. A possible significance of the date, 1738 is that he turned age 40 that year.

Any thoughts, ideas, and opinions will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance!

[wolfgang]

Hallo Wayan, it would be nice to show every, even the tiniest hallmark, as there should be contre marks and so on. A better view of the makers mark would also help. That there is "Minerva", thats often found, when a piece has been controlled again for the actual french market.
regards
Wolfgang

[zilverik]

Hello Wayan,

The marks you show are exactly the same as the marks on my box witch I posted recently (Mystery Paris maker in 1708?). I already had my doubts and now I am sure. This is not 18e century. It is probably a copy, like my box. Maybe late 19e century? Like my box it looks very well made in the LXIV style. With the very difficult to make cut-card technique in the same way, with the same sort of pattern. My box also carries original French marks later than 1838 (and before 1984). The makersmark is the same: G M with two dots under a fleur de lys without a crown is the same as your makersmark. In Paris all the 18e century makers have a crown, I learned yesterday. The A is the same as my A witch should stand for the Paris period of Baligny, de la Haye, Sollier. The crowned P is not the correct P for (august 3) 1708- (July 20) 1709. The official P has small holes in the crown, I learned yesterday. Your P is exactly the same as the P on my box. The fact that the box (and probably your coupe) is very well made intriges me. It must have been a very good silversmith to make these beautifull objects inb the LIV style. I will try to find out more about Georg Ross, but I do not think it is Hanau. Hanau is German. These pieces have "modern" French hallmarks. Why should A Hanau silversmith carry his pieces to France to have it examined there in stead of Germany? There probably are very good French imitating makers as well. I wonder who that could be.

Regards,

Zilverik

[zilverik]

Hi,

Someone informed me that the pseudo marks are to be found in: Jacques Helft """Nouveaux poincons"" 1980, Berger Levrault, page 246. I do not have that book myself. Maybe someone can - with this information - tell about when the pseudomarks were used.

Regards,

Zilverik