russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
I have some russian imperial silver supposedly belonging to Grand Duchess Olga Nikolevna. The only mark i have found is the assayers mark belonging to Dimitry Ilyich Tverskoi, St. Petersburg 1834-1851. Identical looking spoons appeared in a previous post with GAS. The best i can make out the makers mark is HAL. Oddly the date seems to be missing, removed. ON is on the front of the pieces and the double eagle appears on the back. any help would be greatly appreciated.
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Hi cliffD -
before we start to investigate what you have, a short introduction to the different marks you find on Russian silver. Like in nearly all other countrys the Gouvernment asked for exact hallmarking of the silver/gold i.e. the silvercontent, the maker, the assayer, citymark and date of assaying. In Russia it was ordered by law how and where these marks had to be - for example - each part of an object, if it was assembled of different parts (handles, spouts etc.), had to be marked, to make sure that all parts were of the asked silver purity.
What one see at the first glance is that the knive blades (fruit or desert knives?) are uncomplete marked, the handles are without marks! What about the spoons and forks?
Townmark: St. Petersburg, assayer: Tverskoij, Dmitrij Ilitsch, on duty 1832-1850, silver content: 84 Zolotniki = 875/1000, maker: HAL unknown mark
Conclusion: many unsolved questions, very dubious marks. Please provide better detail photos - all the parts must be stamped - so you have a big choice. If this are the only marks you see, than you have no Russian silver - if it is silver!
Regards
Zolotnik
before we start to investigate what you have, a short introduction to the different marks you find on Russian silver. Like in nearly all other countrys the Gouvernment asked for exact hallmarking of the silver/gold i.e. the silvercontent, the maker, the assayer, citymark and date of assaying. In Russia it was ordered by law how and where these marks had to be - for example - each part of an object, if it was assembled of different parts (handles, spouts etc.), had to be marked, to make sure that all parts were of the asked silver purity.
What one see at the first glance is that the knive blades (fruit or desert knives?) are uncomplete marked, the handles are without marks! What about the spoons and forks?
Townmark: St. Petersburg, assayer: Tverskoij, Dmitrij Ilitsch, on duty 1832-1850, silver content: 84 Zolotniki = 875/1000, maker: HAL unknown mark
Conclusion: many unsolved questions, very dubious marks. Please provide better detail photos - all the parts must be stamped - so you have a big choice. If this are the only marks you see, than you have no Russian silver - if it is silver!
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
To the naked eye the knives are all one piece. The forks and spoons are definitely one piece. They are silver, i have already been quated the scrap value. They were purchased in the same lot as several faberge pieces by my grandfather in 79'. given the assayers mark steming from 1834-56 and the duchess was born in 1822, the times work. but why would the date be missing? who is HAL? was it possible for HAL to have made silverware for the romanovs? These questions are what im curious about.
Because the forum rules prohibit embeded photos from being larger than 7" here is a link to image shack with large photos.
http://imageshack.us/g/835/img3606lo.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Because the forum rules prohibit embeded photos from being larger than 7" here is a link to image shack with large photos.
http://imageshack.us/g/835/img3606lo.jpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Hi -
maybe you did not understand what I wrote! It is not importand with which Lot together the things were bought - it is important what marks on each of the pieces are. No marks - no silver! No photos - no answers!
Please provide significant photos of the marks or forget it.
Regards
Zolotnik
maybe you did not understand what I wrote! It is not importand with which Lot together the things were bought - it is important what marks on each of the pieces are. No marks - no silver! No photos - no answers!
Please provide significant photos of the marks or forget it.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
I posted new, larger photos as requested. If your going to be unpleasent please refrain from posting. I am merely trying to find the origin of this silver. information is helpful, condecention is not.Zolotnik wrote:Hi -
maybe you did not understand what I wrote! It is not importand with which Lot together the things were bought - it is important what marks on each of the pieces are. No marks - no silver! No photos - no answers!
Please provide significant photos of the marks or forget it.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
i found more information. This is the catalogue from the most recent Grand Duchess's Bruun-Rasmussen auction:
http://www.bruun-rasmussen.dk/vfs/catal ... svaria.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
on page 37 you see a set of guilded silverware. some aspects of the silver is identical. these pieces were made by Vasili S. Semionov and assayed just after my pieces. Semionov is not listed on this site and i cant find an example of his mark. hope this helps. also some silver pieces in the collection listed say maker unknown, is this common?
[url]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4517/unledldg.png
1414
Russian flatware of fire-gilt silver, the handles
set with the cast armorial crest of the princely
Kozakov family. Comprises 12 knives entirely
of silver, 12 forks, 12 spoons, 12 teaspoons, 1
ladle and 1 serving spoon. Maker Vasili S. Semionov.
Moscow town marks 1840, 1871 and
1882. Assay mark of Viktor Savinkov. (50).
Provenance: Purchased in the 1950s by the present
owner from the antiques dealer Ferlov at Bremerholm
2,Copenhagen.
http://www.bruun-rasmussen.dk/vfs/catal ... svaria.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
on page 37 you see a set of guilded silverware. some aspects of the silver is identical. these pieces were made by Vasili S. Semionov and assayed just after my pieces. Semionov is not listed on this site and i cant find an example of his mark. hope this helps. also some silver pieces in the collection listed say maker unknown, is this common?
[url]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4517/unledldg.png
![[url]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4517/unledldg.png](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/unledldg.png/){kind=link}
1414
Russian flatware of fire-gilt silver, the handles
set with the cast armorial crest of the princely
Kozakov family. Comprises 12 knives entirely
of silver, 12 forks, 12 spoons, 12 teaspoons, 1
ladle and 1 serving spoon. Maker Vasili S. Semionov.
Moscow town marks 1840, 1871 and
1882. Assay mark of Viktor Savinkov. (50).
Provenance: Purchased in the 1950s by the present
owner from the antiques dealer Ferlov at Bremerholm
2,Copenhagen.
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Update: found HAL
Nichols & Plinke Henrik Long
the Tsar's court jeweller
found my silverware
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at56_o.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it was part of her dowry.
now if someone could tell why a date would be removed it will all be settled.
Nichols & Plinke Henrik Long
the Tsar's court jeweller
found my silverware
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at56_o.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
it was part of her dowry.
now if someone could tell why a date would be removed it will all be settled.
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
An interesting set in many ways. What Zolotniks says about the Russian law regarding marking is correct, every detachable part must carry a mark. Nonetheless, spoons and forks are usually made in one piece but knifes have often a (carbon) steel blade. In such a case the silver marks are on the handle. However, it a bit unusual but there are knifes with silver blades made in one piece. Your knifes seems to be that but to comment on that is a bit difficult based on a picture only. Let's assume they are made in one piece because you say so. In that case the marking is correct. By the way the design of the set is an old common European design called "Olga". It is still in production in many countries. Is it a coincident or not but according to you the owner was Grand Duchess Olga Nikolajevna....interesting! The daughter of Nikolai I.
The assayer is the mentioned Dimitrij Tverskoj 1834-1851, but the assayer is not important, the maker "HAL" is. He is not at all unknown instead rather well known smith in St Petersburg. He is as you already found out Henrik August Lång from Sibbo in Finland. He was born 13.10.1787. He came to St Petersburg and became journeyman in 1817. In 1824 he got his master certificate i.e. he marked 1824-1842 after which he moved back to Finland to Loppis. He married 2.10.1837 Agneta Charlotta Frisén from the town of Hämeenlinna/Tavastehus in Finland. Lång marked also Long in script.
However, there are unfortunately some discrepancies here. Lång's mark on your tableware is a bit odd. He is known to have used marks like this H.A.L or H·A·L. Kindly note the dots! Your mark has no dots. In addition, Lång is not known to haven been a court supplier.
The other thing is that stumble into a tableware belonging to the imperial court of Russia in these days and especially in USA makes me too suspicious. I cannot point out any particular reason for this suspicious other that it is rare really rare indeed to do such a finding, more close to impossible. I finding like that would cost a fortune...
Mind my asking two questions:
1. What date is removed and where from?
2. How does Nicholas & Plinke relate to LÃ¥ng or fit the picture?
To Zolotnik, please look at P#1671 and #1783
Please also note that I write the names how they are originally written and not as the English transliterated rather stupid version.
The assayer is the mentioned Dimitrij Tverskoj 1834-1851, but the assayer is not important, the maker "HAL" is. He is not at all unknown instead rather well known smith in St Petersburg. He is as you already found out Henrik August Lång from Sibbo in Finland. He was born 13.10.1787. He came to St Petersburg and became journeyman in 1817. In 1824 he got his master certificate i.e. he marked 1824-1842 after which he moved back to Finland to Loppis. He married 2.10.1837 Agneta Charlotta Frisén from the town of Hämeenlinna/Tavastehus in Finland. Lång marked also Long in script.
However, there are unfortunately some discrepancies here. Lång's mark on your tableware is a bit odd. He is known to have used marks like this H.A.L or H·A·L. Kindly note the dots! Your mark has no dots. In addition, Lång is not known to haven been a court supplier.
The other thing is that stumble into a tableware belonging to the imperial court of Russia in these days and especially in USA makes me too suspicious. I cannot point out any particular reason for this suspicious other that it is rare really rare indeed to do such a finding, more close to impossible. I finding like that would cost a fortune...
Mind my asking two questions:
1. What date is removed and where from?
2. How does Nicholas & Plinke relate to LÃ¥ng or fit the picture?
To Zolotnik, please look at P#1671 and #1783
Please also note that I write the names how they are originally written and not as the English transliterated rather stupid version.
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
thank you for your information. I have stumbled across more information. These pieces were purchased from A La Vieille Russie 781 5th Avenue New York in 1979. A La Vieille Russie, a family enterprise since its founding in Kiev in 1851, left the turmoil of the Revolution and was re-established in Paris around 1920 by Jacques Zolotnitsky, the grandson of the founder. The New York branch was opened in 1941 by the late Alexander Schaffer.
heres a link to the store where they were purchased:
http://www.alvr.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These were purchased for investement purposes. The price was very high in 1979 dollars. thank you for your help, i seem to have solved it.
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
heres a link to the store where they were purchased:
http://www.alvr.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These were purchased for investement purposes. The price was very high in 1979 dollars. thank you for your help, i seem to have solved it.
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Mind my asking two questions:
1. What date is removed and where from?
2. How does Nicholas & Plinke relate to LÃ¥ng or fit the picture?
1. the date below the assayers mark is missing. the recess where it is supposed to be is there but the date is not.
2. Nicholas & Plinke were court jewellers. Henrik Lang was, from my research, with nicholas & pink. here is a link to another court commisioned peace with N&P and H.A.L all this tells me i that HAL did produce tzar silver.
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at56_o.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
here is an HAL no dots
http://www.silvercollection.it/x1671.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here is the kicker. this is a catalogue of grand duchess olga's belongings. If you scroll through the items you will find quite a few representations of this silver inluding what looks like some of the missing pieces from my set.
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at56_o.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1. What date is removed and where from?
2. How does Nicholas & Plinke relate to LÃ¥ng or fit the picture?
1. the date below the assayers mark is missing. the recess where it is supposed to be is there but the date is not.
2. Nicholas & Plinke were court jewellers. Henrik Lang was, from my research, with nicholas & pink. here is a link to another court commisioned peace with N&P and H.A.L all this tells me i that HAL did produce tzar silver.
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at56_o.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
here is an HAL no dots
http://www.silvercollection.it/x1671.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and here is the kicker. this is a catalogue of grand duchess olga's belongings. If you scroll through the items you will find quite a few representations of this silver inluding what looks like some of the missing pieces from my set.
http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion ... at56_o.txt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Hi -
all in all one of the phantastic storys coming up every five years, much "history" and many rumors, several known dealers (always the same),an auction house in the North, a lot of unclear or wrong details and a customer who lost his hard earned money for scrap silver. Always the same.
Regards
Zolotnik
all in all one of the phantastic storys coming up every five years, much "history" and many rumors, several known dealers (always the same),an auction house in the North, a lot of unclear or wrong details and a customer who lost his hard earned money for scrap silver. Always the same.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
? what is your deal? are you the disgruntled silver buff? scrap silver, customer lost his hard earned money. this silver was part of an inheritance. the scrap value, had it been fake, would have still made me smile. the fact that its now looking to be worth quite a bit of money is gratifying. unfortunatly i found zero help from this forum post and quite a bit of unwanted hostility from Zolotnic. I will think twice before posting here again.Zolotnik wrote:Hi -
all in all one of the phantastic storys coming up every five years, much "history" and many rumors, several known dealers (always the same),an auction house in the North, a lot of unclear or wrong details and a customer who lost his hard earned money for scrap silver. Always the same.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Hmmmmm, I'm sorry and afraid that the story is too good to be true. In addition, there are too many disturbing and contradictory facts in it. Even if Zolotnik and I don't always share the same opinion but in this case I tend to share it.
However, mind me asking a bit more. The removed date below the assaying marks. What date would it have been and if if it is removed, how do you know that it was a date? Was it engraved or punched?
Another thing is that you refer to the same auction house's different sites. I took a closer look at lots 1006 and 1007. In 1007 the assayer is mentioned to be an unknown MT assaying in 1823. There is no MT in Moscow around 1823. In 1006 the assayer is supposed to be an unknown ИФ (Actually the "F" should be fita but I don't have fita in my keyboard). There is no assayer in Moscow with those initials around 1807. But there is one ИФ in St Petersburg i. e. Ivan Frolov (also F as "fita"). He was a bit earlier but anyway he was in ST Petersburg and not in Moscow. There are some more strange things but...
In addition, quite a lot of objects from Olga Nikolajevna. How do they know with certainty that this initial ОРis Olga Nikolajevna? How do they know that it was a birthday present or whatever?
Moreover, I cannot find one single indication that LÃ¥ng worked with Nicholls & Plinke and not either that he was granted the court supplier title, how come? The mark you show with N&P and HAL tells only that LÃ¥ng probably sold the item to N&P's shop Magasin Anglais nothing else. N&P would then be the retailer's trade mark/logo.
Anyway, what I have stated is my personal opinion only.
However, mind me asking a bit more. The removed date below the assaying marks. What date would it have been and if if it is removed, how do you know that it was a date? Was it engraved or punched?
Another thing is that you refer to the same auction house's different sites. I took a closer look at lots 1006 and 1007. In 1007 the assayer is mentioned to be an unknown MT assaying in 1823. There is no MT in Moscow around 1823. In 1006 the assayer is supposed to be an unknown ИФ (Actually the "F" should be fita but I don't have fita in my keyboard). There is no assayer in Moscow with those initials around 1807. But there is one ИФ in St Petersburg i. e. Ivan Frolov (also F as "fita"). He was a bit earlier but anyway he was in ST Petersburg and not in Moscow. There are some more strange things but...
In addition, quite a lot of objects from Olga Nikolajevna. How do they know with certainty that this initial ОРis Olga Nikolajevna? How do they know that it was a birthday present or whatever?
Moreover, I cannot find one single indication that LÃ¥ng worked with Nicholls & Plinke and not either that he was granted the court supplier title, how come? The mark you show with N&P and HAL tells only that LÃ¥ng probably sold the item to N&P's shop Magasin Anglais nothing else. N&P would then be the retailer's trade mark/logo.
Anyway, what I have stated is my personal opinion only.
-
finnclouds
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:17 pm
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Could the OP be referring to the punch below? It seems to me the date is obliterated or at least illegible? If true on all the pieces, why, indeed?The removed date below the assaying marks. What date would it have been and if if it is removed, how do you know that it was a date? Was it engraved or punched?
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Of course finnclouds that date! You are absolutely right. I didn't realize that CliffD meant the year mark. Why indeed is it destroyed? I know that in the early days the Soviets completely destroyed Imperial Russia's marks on items sold to the west. The western buyers didn't like that and payed lower prices for objects with destroyed marks. Then the Soviets stopped this stupidity and got a fair price. This mark is, however, only partly destroyed ????
Re: russian imperial silver WAL or HAL
Hi all -
to point you in the right direction:
http://www.henniger.pl/sztucce-olga.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=26126" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now think a little, immagine someone with some skills to fake Russian marks, find some auction house, invent a nice story, and find the fool who believe all this nonsense...
Regards
Zolotnik
to point you in the right direction:
http://www.henniger.pl/sztucce-olga.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=26126" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now think a little, immagine someone with some skills to fake Russian marks, find some auction house, invent a nice story, and find the fool who believe all this nonsense...
Regards
Zolotnik