Help needed with Russian mark

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

it would mean that whatever marks on whatever object not fitting into official known standards and/or marking systems would be explained as exceptional marks used by this and that (possibly closed) community here and there who didn't care about the local legislation

That is a gross over-simplification, many such marks may well have an explanation. We do not know everything about the history of silver marking yet, there is still much to be discovered.

What you wrote above cannot be applied on Imperial Russian silver marks, so forget it at once. The Russian legislation did not permit it.

Neither did British legislation, but there is no escaping the fact, it happened. If you look at things in geographical terms, then if it happened in Great Britain, then it was far more likely to happen in an area the size of that under Russian control.

That would ruin the whole worldwide official silver marking system

Well obviously it didn't.

Factum est: No marks or incorrect marks, not silver!

Are you really saying that silver from countries that have no, or no longer have a, hallmarking system are incapable of producing silverware of a trusted standard?

Regards, Trev.

[Qrt.S]

No, it is not a simplifications. Of course there is always an explanation to everything in this world but is it valid or not is the question. Yes true, it is still much to discover because silver marks is not an absolute science.

Of course there are criminal minds all over. The market is unfortunately flooded with fakes but that does not mean that it would be acceptable. If you were caught as a faker in Russia you were sent to Siberia and sometimes for life. In England it was an even a harder punishment, you Trev. should know that. It was death penalty until 1773. Then it changed to 14 years of deportation to a penal colony. If I remember correctly it is currently a maximum penalty of 10 years in imprisonment. How about that?

No it hasn't ruined the silver market but it is slowly doing it. I like Zolotnik's statement. "A fool and his moneys is soon separated" and my statement: "I you don't know what you are buying, don't buy it" Still people buy crap objects with crap marks....I wonder why????

No I'm not saying that they are incapable to produce trusted silver but the risk has greatly increased that some people in those countries might do it, and not only might....

Hallmarking of precious metals is the earliest form of customer protections. A hallmark is a mark punched by the assay institution on an object made of a precious metal to denote the fineness required by the law in each country. An official hallmark is of unquestioned and unquestionable integrity as a guarantee of fineness. There are very few reasons not to let the assayer check the object's fineness.

1. Unqualified/illegal fineness
2. A fake

It is also of the maker's interest to have his objects hallmarked unless the maker has some dubious thoughts. So why would he avoid having the object hallmarked, the duty fee? I don't think so. If there are no hallmarks it is a big reason to believe that something is not in place.

I find it completely unreasonable to claim that unidentified marks would be explained as "a community's non-standard internal marks"-

And now back to square one, jackk's object's marks. They are still very doubtful, I would almost say spurious. I'm quite sure that when has jackk made his investigations and return with his answer, it will be close to what I said earlier. He will not find a single mark of the similar kind as his shown mark.

Interesting discussion

Rgds

Qrt.S

[dognose]

Hi Zolotnik,

but the rest of the world know that there is a big difference between unofficial (illegal) and official (legal) silver.

Whilst officially marked silver may be considered legal, much unofficially marked silver is not illegal. I'm not referring to countries that lack a hallmarking facility, but the finer points of hallmarking laws. I'm not familar enough with the laws relating to Russian hallmarking, but if they are in any way similar to hallmarking laws in other countries, then perhaps there are reasons why items may not be officially marked. In many countries much depends on the expected destination of the finished product. Would such pieces need to be marked if they were intended for export? Would such pieces need to be marked if they were never intended to be offered for sale to the public? Would such pieces need to be marked if they were intended for the silversmith's own use? As stated, I'm not familar with the finer points of Russian hallmarking laws, perhaps you can advise as to whether such exceptions exist.

Regards Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi dognose-

I am referring to the general usage when you speak of official and unofficial marked silver for the public sale in almost all civilized countries. It was not intended to sell unmarked export silver in the country of origin - in the export country it was hallmarked under present legislation - as soon as it crossed the border - each State had a number of reasons to be most interested in a correct identification. Misuse was illegal and prosecuted very hard. If a silversmith make some object for his own use - he can, but must not mark it - but most are much too proud of their work to let it be unmarked. Other reasons are old unmarked stocks, later "upgraded", "improved" etc.There are always exeptions from the rules: fraud, avoiding fees, substandard, etc.
There are rules - and someone ignoring them. The question you have to ask is : why? Than you have your answer.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Since this is the Russian site, I will not discuss silver marking procedures in other countries but leave it to their respective sites. Anyway, I have often stated here that according to the Russian legislation/assay charters/ukazes etc as from 1700 declared by Peter the Great, it was forbidden to sell silver objects that were not hallmarked. In the beginning silver could not be sold outside the silver rows in Moscow and later in St Petersburg and other towns. The alderman and the guilds supervised the silver trade. What happened before 1600 could be anything but how often have you seen objects from 17th century or earlier on the market? Therefore we could limit it to as from the beginning of the 19th century because Russian objects from the 18th century are also quite rare and seldom on the market. To sell unmarked objects and outside the silver rows was risky business. If you got caught once you were severely fined. If you got caught a second time you were put in prison. If you got caught a third time all your property was confiscated to the state and you found your self in Siberia for life. Still some people tried...and got caught.

Nonetheless, there were to some extent partly or even totally unmarked valuable objects in Russia. The court jeweler’s and court suppliers made these objects to and for the court only. They were not on sale on the market. After the revolution some of these objects popped up on the market. It was the Soviet government who was lack of liquid funds that sold from the court, the czar's family and the nobility confiscated capitalistic "crap" i. e. jewellery etc. in order to feed the starving people. Today a deeply regretted action. However, this has been discussed in earlier threads, please read them. That you would find an unmarked object from the Russian court on the market today is hardly unlike.

Conclusion (told before many times). There is no unmarked genuine Russian silver on today's markets! But unfortunately there is a hell of a lot of faked but marked "Russian silver" circulating. This silver is good very good indeed and getting better and better. It has good marks and is difficult to separate from authentic and marked Russian silver.

Something about official export from Russia. Officially exported Russian silver is marked. Not always with particular export marks but having a master's mark and a hallmark. The export marks can be found on objects from the latter part of the 19th century but not earlier. Earlier export carry a normal master's mark and a hallmark. However, as mentioned the Soviet government sold silver abroad. In the beginning the destroyed the marks and with that their own market for a short period. Then they on the demand of the western buyers stopped it. During the first years of the Soviet regime there was hardly any manufacturing and/or trade with silver in Russia. The small trade that existed marked its silver with the old imperial Russian silver mark, the right looking kokoshnik. It took 10 years to create a new silver mark, the rabota mark. It is the worker(android) looking right with a hammer on his/her shoulder and the fineness in thousands, not anymore in zolotniks. That happened on 23rd of July 1927.

If an exported object was imported back to Russia, it got new marks. These marks are rather rare and can be forgotten.

To Russia imported objects. This has also been discussed but briefly. If you find an object with Russian hallmarks but no maker's mark the object is imported from abroad and very often from Germany who was a exporting trade partner to Russia. The lack of a master's mark is therefore always a red flag regarding Russian silver. Such an object is not manufactured in Russia irrespective of the hallmark and irrespective what the seller might tell you. The lack of a hallmark is also a red or at least a pink flag. It was not allowed to sell such objects.

Last but not least. A silver smith might have made something to his e.g. fiancee/wife/kids/mother-in-law whoever.... That was an object made not for sale but a gift. Yes he could have left it unmarked but why would he do that?

Summa summarum, do not tell me that there are unmarked Russian silver or authentic Russian silver with "unofficial" strange marks. But, yes, there are lots of Russian objects on the market with identified maker's marks but the maker is not known to name. Unfortunately there are also lots of marks with unidentified assayers. An unidentified town mark is more than rare. Moreover, there are even more faked Russian silver on the market. I dare to claim that 90% of the Fabergé objects currently for sale are faked beware of them.

Have a nice evening

Qrt.S

[Dad]

Hi, All.


You go in the wrong direction. Here we see the Russian type of hallmarks. Finess - 84 zolotnik. A sign of the state certificate - town mark. In certain cases, the rule allowed to punch the certificate sign and the finess only.
At that time (the first half of the 19th century) in Lithuania silversmiths were usually Polish-German and subscribed in Latin.
For Qrt.S : after Balabanov, Zimin was the assay master in Grodno.

I have no example of earlier punch of the Grodno town mark, but for an example: compare Vilno's town marks of 1834 and 1846. Also was and in Grodno.



PS. But I don't want to speak about authenticity of punches. This photo are not very good.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

thank you for posting the marks, which in my opinion are new. As I monitor the "fakemarket" and its newest trends very close - I observe an increasing amount of older marks, very well made, but different from the known - together with complete master names in Latin letters - which connote some Jewish-German silversmiths. 20 years one could not find pieces from Grodno - now they are flooding the market. Where came they from? Found in a forgotten Grodno warehouse? The same for Vilnius. Moscow and St. Petersburg marks/masters are very well known - now our friends try something new - and it seems to work.
Here are some : please compare master- and town marks. some masters worked in different towns....









Regards
Zolotnik

[jackk]

20 years one could not find pieces from Grodno - now they are flooding the market. Where came they from? Found in a forgotten Grodno warehouse? The same for Vilnius.

Of course, there is plenty of fakes circulating, but partial answer to the above question is: internet. Tons of silver were moved from Europe to America during late XIX and early XX century. 20 years ago these were mainly traded on American markets. Now, thanks to internet, they have much more exposure.

Here are better pictures of the hallmarks that started this saga.

[Qrt.S]

Thank you, Dad and Zolotnik for good inputs and especially the quality of your pictures, very interesting.
One thing that I forgot to mentions was that according to the Russian law a master was obliged to register himself in the town he worked It was also forbidden by law to be registered in more than one place at the same time (I have stated this before many times). That means that when comparing the maker's mark and his working period with the town mark they must match. Not to forget the assayer's mark with the year. They must also match with the town mark and the assayer's working period as well as his location. In any other case the object must be considered as spurious. There are no exceptions whatsoever.

Also thanks jackk for your new good pictures. I have now used all my sources to find out who this mysterious master might be. I think I read "Preizyg" from the mark. And guess what, I found one master with that name. In additon, I found that he worked in Grodno. He was Jakob Preizyg. Not much known about him.
BUT! I also found that his maker's mark does not at all match with your mark jackk. Moreover, Preizyg was active ~1809-1811 and he marked the fineness in loths (12) not in zolotniks. As I mentioned earlier loth changed into zolotnik after 1830.

PS. Do not forget what Zolotnik wondered. "Wherefrom have all these objects from small towns suddenly popped up from?" I'm wondering the same. My conclusion is that there are too many authentic objects from Moscow, St Petersburg, Kostroma, Veliki Ustjug.... It makes it rather easy to compare the marks. But pick a hardly known town and use its marks....what do you compare with? The literature is rather limited in this area.

Time for conclusions...

[Zolotnik]

Hi jackk -

Tons of silver were moved from Europe to America during late XIX and early XX century. 20 years ago these were mainly traded on American markets. Now, thanks to internet, they have much more exposure.

Statements like that, concerning Russian silver, should be proofed by facts - because they are total wrong! I know all the stories of Jewish refugees from Poland, who could save only their life and all their silver....even here in the forum we hear from time to time such phantasies, not to mention the dealers with their versions. Auction houses and auction sites in USA are full of contemporary fakes only - almost no authentic silver. The Russian hype started 10 years ago - mainly with Fabergé. As a editing member of a major American silver forum since decades I have first hand informations what was going on in the collectors´ circles. Everything but Russian silver!! If you refer to "liberated" European silver after WW II, I am with you.

My summary: Considering/knowing all the existing rigid rules and regulations re hallmarking and knowing the actual background/laws of assaying in Imperial Russia one must come to the conclusion that it is counterfeiting what is seen here. Knowledge is the only medicine against fakes!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
for a better overall picture some late history of Grodno( Hrodna):
Around 1900 the town was a significant Jewish centre, 50% of the inhabitants were Jews
1915-1919 the town was occupied by German troops (WW I)
21st Sept. 1939 the town was occupied by the Red Army (WW II!
1940 and 1941 many inhabitants were deported by the Soviets to Sibiria and Kasachstan
1941 the town was occupied by the German Army, 50% of the buildings destroyed, the Jews came into Ghettos, later deported and killed.(WW II)

It is hard to believe that there was a rich and prosperous silversmithing life in town - if any - and that much silver survived these hard times!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, Zolotnik.

The punches of Vilno's assay office on spoons which you showed aren't false. This my opinion.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

you are right. I mixed Vilnius and Grodno marks to show the similarity - some are real, some are fakes - but who really knows?

Regards
Zolotnik

[jackk]

So what do you guys think of these hallmarks, where there is no assayer mark? I am just curious.

[Zolotnik]

Hi jackk -

the shown marks are correct - see examples:





Regards
Zolotnik

[admin]

Hi Jackk,

Getting back to the original subject, Jakub Preizyg. I've appended a text below from a catalog of an exhibition at the Lithuanian National Art Museum in Vilnius. Google translation makes a hash out of the English translation, perhaps you'll get a clearer rendition asking for a Polish or German translation. However, some facts are clear enough; Preizyg ended his apprenticeship by 1809, worked in Vilnius for a couple of years and was later active in Grodno until at least 1834. He also was known to have at least two maker's marks, one is his full surname in script.
Regards, Tom

ps. If there is any chance of you reposting an image of the marks in full, I'd appreciate it.

JOKŪBAS PREIZIGAS (Jakub Preizyg, Preisych, Praizich)
Amatininkas, auksakalys. Gimimo ir mirties datos nėra žinomos.
1803 m. pradÄ—jo mokytis pas Michaelį, greičiausiai Gardine (Baltarusija). Ä® Vilniaus cecho knygÄ… įraÅ¡ytas 1809 m. lapkričio 30 d. („Jakub Preisych“), 1811 m. lapkričio 13 d. iÅ¡raÅ¡ytas („Jakub Praizich“).
Jo darbų žinoma nedaug. Juos galima datuoti 2 deÅ¡imtmečio pabaiga ir 3 pradžia. Nežinoma, kur dirbo, bet tikÄ—tina, kad Gardine, nes ten 1834 m. padarÄ— votÄ… Gardino brigičių bažnyčioje. Savo darbus ženklino dvejopai: „PREI/ZYG“ (panaÅ¡iai kaip Michaelis) ir Preizyg kursyvu, panaÅ¡iu į JokÅ«bo Gustavo Hano (Jakob Gustaw Hahn) ženklinimÄ….
Be eksponuojamų, yra žinomas dar vienas Preizigo darbas: Trakų parapinÄ—je bažnyčioje esantis smilkytuvas, datuojamas apie 1820 m. ir pasiraÅ¡ytas „Preizy...“ ir „12“ (nepublikuotas, B. R. V. rastas inventorizacinÄ—s ekspedicijos metu).

Tekstas parengtas 2006-02-28 pagal parodos katalogo
„Vilniaus klasicizmas“ (V., 2000, p. 339) informacijÄ…

Bibliografija:
LVIA, f. 956, ap. 1, b. 2, l. 14.

[oel]

I believe those started the saga





Best,

Oel

[Qrt.S]

Still too many inconsistencies.

1 The town mark lacks the year and looks odd. Check with Dad's input 25.4. at 8.57. There you will find the correct town mark.
2 This town mark is not known to have been used before 1854
3 If Jakub studied around 1803-1811 there is a quite a gap to 1854. He is an old man in 1854!!!
4 The fineness is expressed in zolotniks when it should be in loths.
5 etc....

Here is a soot mark of Jakub's mark.