Unknown Reval master

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
need some help identivying an to me unknown master from Reval. The book "Baltisches Silber" by A. Leistikow do not show this mark.
Town mark: Reval
Assayer: ЯН 1856, 1864, 1866 unknown
Maker: C.J. unknown







Any help welcome!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Hephaistos]

It is not a Reval (Tallinn) master, it is a Pernu (ger. Pernau) master Carl Johan Ludwig Jacoby, stamping 1859 to 1898. The (to name unknown) assaymaster Ja N was stamping in Tallinn 1855-1869.
Pernu had earlier its own town mark, not the general for the Tallinn district, the 3 "lion passant".
In the 1880-ies, the Pernu silversmiths were redirected to go to Riga for assaying, to assayers such as Daniil Lesenko and Ivan Spiridonov.

[AG2012]

Pernu,but it was much earlier.

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

thank you very much for your reply, bu I have some doubts:
The until now unknown assaymaster ЯН is seen only on objects from the years 1856, 1864 and 1866!
In Pernu was no master Carl Johan Ludwig Jacoby. I know only Jacobi, Friedrich Hermann 1749-1798 in Bauske - Jacobi (Jacoby), Friedrich Wilhelm in Riga 1813-1818 and 1826-1831 - Jacobi, Justus Alexander 1717-1736 in Arensburg. All three have different marks and do not fit from the time line.
Do you have a photo of the mark of CJL Jacoby?

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Not much help,unfortunately;this is all I have found in Rosenberg.
Regards

[Hephaistos]

Zolotnik has outdated information. He is denying the research litterature on estonian silver stamps which has confirmed the existence of Carl jacoby as silversmith in Pernu, published already 1939 (Henrich Laakmann: Das burgerbuch von Pernau II, 1787- 1889). Also Kaalu Kirme ( Eesti Hobe, Tallinn 2000 ) has publisched jacobis stamp.
Aurs Reinans has in Höbedamargid Eestis (Die silbermarken Estlands, Tallinn 2005) a seqence of Jacoby's stamps.

He stamped C . Jacoby (1869), CJ similar to Zolotniks example 1869, and a variety of that 1865. He was silver master in Pernu 1859-1898.

The assaymaster in Tallinn Ja N is verified stamping 1858, 1861, 1862, 1865, 1868,1869.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Ag2012-
Hi Hephaistos-

thanks of your tips I finally found the mark in Kaalu Kirme´s book EESTI HOBE.


@Hephaistos
I appreciate your courteous manner as you impart your knowledge! My informations are not outdated and I deny not the Estonian research literature - I just thought A. Leistikow is the most comprehensiv book about Baltic silver - and looked nowhere else - a mistake!

Thanks again -
Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.

Very interesting theme.
I have data that the assaymaster Ya.N. (ЯН) began the work in Reval in 1860. He was appointed instead of Zagrebin A.P.. Zagrebin is dismissed from assayoffice in 1860, because of violations in work.

You speak about Reval's punches of the assaymaster ЯН before 1860. How such could be? May be it false punches? Show it, please.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -
all I have are 3 photos from the book EESTI HOBE by Kaalu Kirme:





my spoon



the years according to the book Baltisches Silber by A. Leistikov:



and the dates Hephaistos give:

The assaymaster in Tallinn Ja N is verified stamping 1858, 1861, 1862, 1865, 1868,1869.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.

Thank you, Zolotnik.

It is difficult for understanding. Facts authentic. This assaymaster (ЯН) arrived to Reval from Novocherkassk. In Novocherkassk on its place Timofey Ivanov in 1860 was employed. (The P-L confirms 1860). Before it in Reval the assaymaster Alexander Zagrebin worked. Show please the AЗ last brands, if it be. They (ЯН and АЗ) couldn't work in at one time.

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

here are the assay masters from Reval and the known years when they were on duty (the given dates are from stamps on authentic objects).
Source: A. Leistikow, "Baltisches Silber" - in Estonian books you find no assay masters.



Regards
Zolotnik

[silverfan]

Hi Dad,
in Leistikow " Baltisches Silber" you will find on Page 277 the mark of Carl Heinrich Lindholm 1856-1880 in Pernau (with the Reval town mark) and the mark of the here discussed assaymaster from 1856.

[Qrt.S]

To Dad!

This assaymaster (ЯН) arrived to Reval from Novocherkassk.

I have no information of the above quoted. Do you mean that ЯН earlier worked as an assayer in Novocherkassk? In that case, what was his working period 18??- 1856(60) or? Like to know for my records.Thank you in advance.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

most of all I am very interested in his name!!!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.

To Ort.S.
Unfortunately, I know that JaN replaced Zagrebin in 1860, only. In Novocherkassk he was replaced by Timofey Ivanov in 1860 . How many years JaN worked in Novocherkassk I don't know.
To Zolotnik.
According to my data it is Natarov (only a surname). But I think, it's Jacov Aleksandrovich Natarov. (Ort.S. knows it))

But I continue search )))

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

many thanks for the information!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes, I know Jakov A. Natarov. I have him registered in Riga 1851-1853 and in Kiev 1887. Was he in Reval an Novocherkassk too, is the question and when?

[Dad]

Yes, I know Jakov A. Natarov. I have him registered in Riga 1851-1853 and in Kiev 1887. Was he in Reval an Novocherkassk too, is the question and when?

Hi, Qrt.S.

It's very interestingly. Please, explain about Riga 1851-53. I don't know about it.

To Zolotnik. Where you took data about Ivan Spiridonov?

Best Reg..

[Hephaistos]

I have already mentioned that Ya N was assay master in Tallinn 1853-1869. One single year, 1860, Alexander Zagrebin stamped for the office/district 1860. But, also Ya N stamped this particular year. If somebody will deny the fact that it is impossible with two assay masters the same year, the explanation might be that both stamped in different parts of the year, Ya N was maybe away for some time 1860.
Ya N stamped for the entire district and the complete observations of his assay stamp ranges over wide time span. In addition to my earlier list of years of his stamping, here his known observed stamping years together with origin of silversmiths.

Paide
1861
Pernu
1861
1862
1863
1864
1869
Rakvere
1857
1860 !!
Tallinn
1857
1868
1869

Thus, Ya N stamped all years in sequence, with a minor gap 1860 when Zagrebin substituted.

[Dad]

Hi, Hephaistos .

Thank you for your message.

I found out new data. JAN worked in Reval before 1859. Then he was transferred to Novocherkassk. Zagrebin was appointed to his place in Reval. In 1860 in connection with bad work, Zagrebin was transferred to Ledengsk's salt plant (near Vologda). And JAN came back in Reval to correct work.
Zagrebin worked in Reval about one year. And JaN worked in Novocherkassk about one year.

Please, show example of punches by Zagrebin (AЗ) and by Hermann Clemens.

Best Reg..