Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
I came across a vintage metal stein (silver plate I assume) but cant find the maker's mark stamped on the bottom. The stein measures approx. 13" H x 5" W (at the base). The detailed relief must have been hammered by hand as the negative side can be seen from the inside of the tankard. The stamping on the bottom is hard to decipher but I can make out the "H" and what appears to be a "J" or "F" to the right of the three lower marks. The center of the stein is etched "Ludwig Heck, Germany, 1951" but I can't be sure this date matches the age of the stein or if its German or from some other country. Any help is appreciated.
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Hi welcome to the forum.
Looking at your image of the marks;
The mark furthest to the right the stylized capital letter i. and in a striped background; Dutch duty mark for unguaranteed standard of fineness new silver objects of (Dutch) national origin. This mark was sometimes mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects, as long as the average precious metal content after melting with the base metal was at least 250/1000. It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness being 833/1000. In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or ‘unguaranteed’ marking. As of 1927 this mark was was also used on objects of old (Dutch) national origin. Valid from 1906 till 1953
http://www.925-1000.com/Fnetherlands_Date_Code.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
The H in a circle looks like the Dutch date letter H for 1917 but if so we should find three more marks on your tankard; the standard mark being a lion passant or rampant facing right, the office mark or Minerva head and maker’s mark. Those marks could be spread over your ‘stein’ and hard to find. Another possibility is the date letter; to identify the assayer on duty under whose responsibility the assay test took place to determine the legal silver standard, has been struck by mistake and should have been removed or made invalid after it failed the lowest legal standard assay test.
The three marks below the H in a circle and if genuine; (upside down) on your image
From left to right; old Dutch guild 1st Standard Coat of Arms of Holland the crowned Lion Rampant facing left for 944/1000 fineness and followed by a crowned city mark and date letter or perhaps maker's mark. The crowned city mark, which looks like a wind mill or double headed eagle, for a city in the province of Holland is unknown to me. Most likely those last three marks are pseudo marks.
My advices have your ‘stein’ cleaned and check very closely for other marks and have it re-tested by an assay office or other trustworthy institute.
Oel
Looking at your image of the marks;
The mark furthest to the right the stylized capital letter i. and in a striped background; Dutch duty mark for unguaranteed standard of fineness new silver objects of (Dutch) national origin. This mark was sometimes mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects, as long as the average precious metal content after melting with the base metal was at least 250/1000. It was also struck on rejected objects which had been submitted at lowest standard of fineness being 833/1000. In that case the maker had to choose between destruction or ‘unguaranteed’ marking. As of 1927 this mark was was also used on objects of old (Dutch) national origin. Valid from 1906 till 1953
http://www.925-1000.com/Fnetherlands_Date_Code.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
The H in a circle looks like the Dutch date letter H for 1917 but if so we should find three more marks on your tankard; the standard mark being a lion passant or rampant facing right, the office mark or Minerva head and maker’s mark. Those marks could be spread over your ‘stein’ and hard to find. Another possibility is the date letter; to identify the assayer on duty under whose responsibility the assay test took place to determine the legal silver standard, has been struck by mistake and should have been removed or made invalid after it failed the lowest legal standard assay test.
The three marks below the H in a circle and if genuine; (upside down) on your image
From left to right; old Dutch guild 1st Standard Coat of Arms of Holland the crowned Lion Rampant facing left for 944/1000 fineness and followed by a crowned city mark and date letter or perhaps maker's mark. The crowned city mark, which looks like a wind mill or double headed eagle, for a city in the province of Holland is unknown to me. Most likely those last three marks are pseudo marks.
My advices have your ‘stein’ cleaned and check very closely for other marks and have it re-tested by an assay office or other trustworthy institute.
Oel
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Oel - Thank you so much for the detailed information on the hallmarks. I spent several weeks scanning the internet for information but come up short. Looking at the marks upside down surely didn't help :) I'll have the stein cleaned and check it closely for any additional marks. So based on your observation of the marks, do you feel this is a silver plated stein or perhaps one made of very low silver content? I am not sure how to translate 944/1000, 250/1000 or 833/1000 into a percentage. Also, could the stein be older than the engraved date of 1951? And lastly, any thoughts on the stein itself? Is it an award or trophy or perhaps something that Mr. Ludwig Heck had personalized for his own pleasure. Warm regards, Marc
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Oel - to clarify, my question regarding silver content is really directed to calculating the level of purity. You're comments suggest that the marking would be consistent with items that met the lowest silver content standard of the period. Does this mean that it could be a grade higher than silver plate? Or possibly a combination of silver plate and silver? I hope this makes sense.
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Hi Mark,
Personally I believe your beer stein to be made out of silver but we do not know the standard or purity of the silver metal used and like I mentioned ; have it tested by an assay office or other trustworthy institute. The fineness marks: old 1st standard between 934/1000-944/1000 or minimum 93.4% and maximum 94.4% pure silver used and 2nd standard minimum 833/1000 or minimum 83.3% pure silver used and below Dutch legal minimum for example; 830 /1000- 250/1000 or minimum 83.0%- 25% pure silver used.
The engraved date could have been done at a later stage and the tankard could have been made with a free cartouche and perhaps it has been personalized years later to commemorate Ludwig Heck in the English language. The rearing horse could be symbolic. To me the ‘old’ style (revival) and excessive decorations of the tankard standing on four decorated legs makes me think made early 20th century, in the Netherlands but the beer stein could have been made in Germany in the 'Hanau style' (pseudo marks)
This Ludwig Heck died in 1951;
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Heck_%28Zoologe%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
However there could be many other possibilities or make other speculations.
Best,
Oel.
Personally I believe your beer stein to be made out of silver but we do not know the standard or purity of the silver metal used and like I mentioned ; have it tested by an assay office or other trustworthy institute. The fineness marks: old 1st standard between 934/1000-944/1000 or minimum 93.4% and maximum 94.4% pure silver used and 2nd standard minimum 833/1000 or minimum 83.3% pure silver used and below Dutch legal minimum for example; 830 /1000- 250/1000 or minimum 83.0%- 25% pure silver used.
The engraved date could have been done at a later stage and the tankard could have been made with a free cartouche and perhaps it has been personalized years later to commemorate Ludwig Heck in the English language. The rearing horse could be symbolic. To me the ‘old’ style (revival) and excessive decorations of the tankard standing on four decorated legs makes me think made early 20th century, in the Netherlands but the beer stein could have been made in Germany in the 'Hanau style' (pseudo marks)
This Ludwig Heck died in 1951;
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Heck_%28Zoologe%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
However there could be many other possibilities or make other speculations.
Best,
Oel.
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Thank you once again Oel. Great insights and I will do a bit more research and provide updates as I learn more. I am thankful that there are individuals like yourself who are willing to share their knowledge. Regards.
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Oel -
I ordered a silver nitric acid test kit as the first step in testing the stein. Given that there is a gold/yellow tone to some areas I assumed it to be silver plate. After testing several areas (both on the surface and filing down two small areas below the top layer) I received positive results for silver.
1) Three exterior sections tested. Results came back orange amber or dark red indicating 80% - 95% silver
2) Two interior sections tested (1 inside the tankard, 1 inside the lid. Results came back orange amber or dark red indicated 80% - 95% silver
3) Specifically targeted the gold/yellow metal assuming these were areas where the silver plate had worn off. All areas tested positive for silver
Now, repairs were made to two of the feet and there's a blob of welding material behind each. Its made of a soft metal. When tested, each area turned green confirming that the material used in the repair is not silver. I also used a known silver plate dish as a control to ensure the acid was indeed working. The silver plate turned green withing seconds or applying the acid.
So the big question ... does polished silver ever have a gold or yellow tone? If not, why didn't these areas test positive for a non-silver base metal?
See photos
I ordered a silver nitric acid test kit as the first step in testing the stein. Given that there is a gold/yellow tone to some areas I assumed it to be silver plate. After testing several areas (both on the surface and filing down two small areas below the top layer) I received positive results for silver.
1) Three exterior sections tested. Results came back orange amber or dark red indicating 80% - 95% silver
2) Two interior sections tested (1 inside the tankard, 1 inside the lid. Results came back orange amber or dark red indicated 80% - 95% silver
3) Specifically targeted the gold/yellow metal assuming these were areas where the silver plate had worn off. All areas tested positive for silver
Now, repairs were made to two of the feet and there's a blob of welding material behind each. Its made of a soft metal. When tested, each area turned green confirming that the material used in the repair is not silver. I also used a known silver plate dish as a control to ensure the acid was indeed working. The silver plate turned green withing seconds or applying the acid.
So the big question ... does polished silver ever have a gold or yellow tone? If not, why didn't these areas test positive for a non-silver base metal?
See photos
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Sorry Ole. I should have asked ... Does polished silver ever have a gold or yellow tone? If not, that would suggest this is silver plate correct? If so, then why didn't these areas test NEGATIVE for silver? Also, note, the stein weighs approx. 20 oz.
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
More food for thought ... Could the yellowing be a result of lacquering as shown here http://www.hermansilver.com/beforeandafter15.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ?
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Or ... could the inside of the tankard and certain sections of the exterior be gilded/gilt silver? This would explain the gold / yellow tone
.
.
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Hi Mark,
First things first; I advised you to go to an assay office or other trustworthy institute to have the stein tested. The Specific Gravity method is the only sure way. Here's a post that explains the method:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 30&p=25002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Acid tests done by first timers or amateurs can be deceiving and especially if an item is silver plated. However if you choose for it to continue yourself with acid, I advise you to search the stein for a place, normally out of sight or inside the stein, where you can remove the surface layer by scratching and apply a drop of acid and see the results.
My personal opinion looking at your last images; very big chance the stein is silver plated not silver gilded and again the i. in a striped background; Dutch duty mark for unguaranteed standard of fineness new silver objects of (Dutch) national origin. This mark was sometimes mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects…….
Anyway too many red herrings.
Best,
Oel.
First things first; I advised you to go to an assay office or other trustworthy institute to have the stein tested. The Specific Gravity method is the only sure way. Here's a post that explains the method:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 30&p=25002" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Acid tests done by first timers or amateurs can be deceiving and especially if an item is silver plated. However if you choose for it to continue yourself with acid, I advise you to search the stein for a place, normally out of sight or inside the stein, where you can remove the surface layer by scratching and apply a drop of acid and see the results.
My personal opinion looking at your last images; very big chance the stein is silver plated not silver gilded and again the i. in a striped background; Dutch duty mark for unguaranteed standard of fineness new silver objects of (Dutch) national origin. This mark was sometimes mistakenly used on old and foreign objects. This mark was used on all new silver objects below legal standard of fineness, those with non-precious metal additions, and on new heavily gold or silver plated objects…….
Anyway too many red herrings.
Best,
Oel.
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Thanks Oel. I will try the specific gravity test as well. I have an appointment to meet with a jeweler who will also test the metal. Based on this test 10.5 g = pure silver, what outcome will I be looking for when testing European silver of 800/1000?
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Oel - Note that the last photo shows how the acid reacted to the lead used in the repair of the silver leg (from the back of the leg / underside of the tankard base. The lead turned green as expected. All other results tested positive for silver; both surface areas and sub-surface.
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Hi Mark,
Do not known all the answers but please take my advice go to an assay office or other trustworthy institute and have experts perform the assay test. X-Ray Fluorescence Spectrometry (XRF) for compositions of precious metal alloys only reliable if done &“read” by experts.
http://www.hallmarking.com/hallmarking/assaying" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Best,
Oel
Do not known all the answers but please take my advice go to an assay office or other trustworthy institute and have experts perform the assay test. X-Ray Fluorescence Spectrometry (XRF) for compositions of precious metal alloys only reliable if done &“read” by experts.
http://www.hallmarking.com/hallmarking/assaying" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Best,
Oel
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whatisthis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:13 am
Re: Help ID "H" Hallmark on Old Stein
Oel - Thank you for clarifying the term "assay". Its not one that I am familiar with but will seek out an institution to perform the proper test. Thanks once again for all the help!