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here an other object before 1928 from J. KOPF - very easy to find if you search! If you are interested: Tallin, auction house, still available (since months)...Maybe you inform your friends. If you need more objects - let me know.
Back a little to basics. What have been done is a try to link the occurrence, and frequent occurrence, of the silversmith EP in St P in combination with, on one hand the peculiar stamp S.P.BURG, and on the other Joseph Kopf. EP is a mass producer of tableware, including serving sets, and S.P. BURG a retailer in St P. Kopf acting in the same role in Tallinn but far earlier, from 1908 having sold EP stuff in Estonia, but also, S.P.BURG was strong present there. EP, then in two ways linked to Estonian customers, had the chasing forms, in St P, to complete missing parts an Estonian table service. Obviously Kopf was in this trade also earlier, he started already 1891, when he still haven’t received his guild master, and maintained this business up to 1918.
From that, and other phenomena, such as S.P.BURG also had other suppliers (AK) I have concluded that Kopf - who also had other suppliers from St P, both were mainly retailors, not active silversmiths, and in the Kopf case, this was his breadwinning from 1891 to 1918, 37 years. This conclusion has strong support in the overall analysis of silver-smithing manufacturing, market situation and late mechanization of Estonian silver-smithing by Alur Reinans 2010. If this blows away a little of the glory of Kopf, in his case the halo of his name, is for others to judge, in any case, in this respect he is to be reassessed.
The showcases Zolotnik just presented here, are strengthening, rather than weakening, the reasons for a reassessment. The stuff has disputable artistic value, mostly souvenirs, and have nothing of his later more simplistic and functionalistic (as well as various retro-styles) designs he produced later, after setting up his factory 1928.
After this rugby game remains now a closer look to his Russian suppliers, and of them, the most frequent EP. It is good reasons to believe that the EP who provided the goblet (Qrt.S, not a chalice, not only church silver), which Kopf dismantled 1903 and made to the standing cup with dear foot was Jegor Pankratchev. To give evidence to that, we take advantage of another source, Anu Mänd´s catalogue of the permanent silver exhibition in Niguliste church in Tallinn, published 2002. Fortunately two stamps of EP from the standing cup is there, one blurry but one sharp, the later absolutely similar to Ivanov’s photo # 3180, with a view also of the double assay stamp of St P 1882-99. But does this verify that it is the same EP (Pankratchev) that delivers 1908, as we assumed from the very start examining the spoons, just because we know that Pancratchev delivered to Kopf earlier?
Let us have a look at all the EP:s around. They are very alike, same shape in the Kopf case as the S.P.BURG, and exactly as Postnikova # 1276, the rectangle almost an oval, and she says Jegor Pancratchev. But now you see what I see, a red herring. Postnikova lead us to Pancratchev, and the Kopf masterpiece from 1903 also, but a closer examination do show a small difference between the stamps, the “older” is more rectangular, the Postnikova and “later EP” has more rounded corners. We have now got two EP:s and is it probable that it is the same possessor, but by time slightly different shape of his stamp? Postnikova is wrong in determine her EP (she has only one in St P) to be active 1898-1908, which is wrong for Pancrathev, he was active 1874-1908. But she is almost right when it comes to the more “oval”, the oval EP stamped both before 1908 and after 1908 (Yakov Lyaponov and alfa respectively).
That’s where we are. From a craftsmanship point of view, the conservatism of the guild, and the mental and special immobility of silversmiths, it is unlikely so that a silversmith of corpus items do shift to mass production; they rather starved (which there is a lot of examples of). On the other hand, under influence of business tycoons such as Kopf and S.P.BURG, and growing capitalism and industrialism in St P, and over a time span of more than 30 years, it might be so that the Pankratchev workshop expanded to something else? Of that, we so far know little.
The Kopf early purchases in St P are in one way illuminating his approach. He was a collector, for future use. He assembled silver for later remake of his own design. A goblet with lid from IT (in Cyrillic) in St P, another from Germany, remade by Kopf and stamped in St P, he made a goblet with lid 1921, where the foot is from the (unnamed but well-known) master P.L stamped by Lyaponov in St P before 1903, with a cuppa from AH? (Cyrillic) assay stamped in Moscow, some 20 years after the originals were made. Who talked of eclecticism? He stored, for later use, and when a costumer appeared demanding some prestige gift, he proposed a design from his shelf and, - made remakes, of Kopf high quality craftsmanship, in that sense close to the stars, if not in taste.
No matter, I like him. Sometimes you have to kill your darling.
The only reason for Hephaistos to intervene in the thread EP and J.KOPF was to shed some light to a very intricate and still irritating puzzle. On that track, in this respected forum, has been presented own investigations, references to almost all available sources and a thorough stamp analysis. In the wider context also a touch of reassessment of Joseph Kopf’s life and works have been made, unavoidable, to try to paint, although with a broad brush, a picture of that time, that situation, and that state of art.
To Admin or Moderator
1. Is it common in this forum that a contributor shall declare his/her profession?
2. Is there a request or demand from the editors/moderators of Silverforum to participants to declare the reasons why to participate, either to ask a question or to comment/contribute?
3. Is it common that a contributor, before voicing, shall have made an inventory of the products of a silversmith/vendor active 100 years ago, under discussion, to all buyers and descendants and the silver evacuation all across Europe under 2 World Wars?
4. If a curious person raises a question (in this case Ringo), is it common that a contributor swaps this matter to be a problem of his own?
If the answer is no to all this, maybe contributors will contribute, if not, no voice but exit.
This is an open forum, all contributions are welcome and all participants are allowed to ask questions or give answers. Nobody is obliged to answer a question he or she does not like, however some answers given may not be liked by others. Sometimes the forum is used by people with a hidden agenda. We try and hope for free and open discussions for better understanding about Russian silver, hallmarks & maker’s marks. Sometimes we need some more time to understand each other better and absolutely no reason to get upset. We all look forward to receiving many more of your welcome contributions.
Hephaistos wrote:1. Is it common in this forum that a contributor shall declare his/her profession?
2. Is there a request or demand from the editors/moderators of Silverforum to participants to declare the reasons why to participate, either to ask a question or to comment/contribute?
3. Is it common that a contributor, before voicing, shall have made an inventory of the products of a silversmith/vendor active 100 years ago, under discussion, to all buyers and descendants and the silver evacuation all across Europe under 2 World Wars?
4. If a curious person raises a question (in this case Ringo), is it common that a contributor swaps this matter to be a problem of his own?
Most important is verifiable knowledge and answering questions! I miss both...
Are you the Admin? If so, thank you for the polite and washed answer. If the idea is to maintain a free and open discussion, then have a look-out for openness and not closeness. If somebody addresses personal issues, or rising questions on reasons why to participate, the forum will be much narrower.
I guess that readers, spending hours and hours, and to that hours and hours, to follow this interesting section of Russian silver, are surprised when any thread, as this, goes into unexpected direction, addressing absolute irrelevant matters on any contributor’s profession, reasons to participate, collection of silver or anything like that.
What Heiphaistos now has done — all in all - is not less than writing an essay on the EP-S.P.BURG-KOPF puzzle, in bits and pieces, but altogether radically new angles into the subject, and into the mystery of Ringo, which is now not a mystery at all, although it did look like that at first sight, for somebody.
To Zolotnik
I saw what you did not see, EP and S.P.BURG table silver, widely spread by probably Estonian refugees in WW II, and still occurring there. My sources? Literature? There aren’t any like that, the silver just had passed my hands.
I guess that readers would be a little unsatisfied, if Zolotnik's request stands uncommented -"verified knowlege" to participate in Silverforum? Is he recruiting from here to academic posts in the art history of silver, or what? Is he asking for a CV? Zolotnik's own rule to participate here in Silverforum is absolutely contradictory to what Oel just said.
Hephaistos only told of what he know of, referring to sources and the result of it all. Readers are absolutle capable to evaluate the relevance and evidence. The CV of Hephaistos is to be read from greece mythodology, and the CV of the nick here will never be avaliable for Silverforum.
Ayayayayaaaa!
Sometimes interesting threads seem to develop in a totally wrong direction like this one. Nonetheless, let’s put it back on tracks again. But first I’d like to thank Hephaistos for his interesting overview of Joseph Kopf´s activities in both Russia and Estonia. Even if I knew some of it, it contained some knew things to me. However, the discussion has not ended yet but I think we can consider that what is stated about Kopf is more or less all what is currently known about him and his actions.
Before continuing I’d like to draw your attention to one in a way delicate matter that Oel probably forgot to mention. This is an international site and the language is English. But! There are attendants from all over the world whose native tongue is another language than English but they are still writing in English (like me) English is their second or maybe third language. The English native tongue writers are in the minority, not majority. This is a minor problem and might cause misunderstandings somebody might feel offended, misunderstood whatsoever. I don’t think that anybody on purpose aims to attack another writer. Therefore, it is not the grammar or wording that is important but the message. Please notice this when you read the inputs and oversee lingual “faults” and deficiencies. Thank you.
Now back to the topic. As I already mentioned case Kopf is rather clear for the moment. But what is still in the darkness are the marks ЕП and С.П.БУ ГЪ/С.П:БУ ГЪ. Let’s for a moment focus on them.
Hate to repeat, but it is known that there are some ЕП: s around the turn of the century. One is the mentioned rounded corner ЕП that is obviously Jegor Pankratjev 1874-1908. To Hephaistos’s attention that I did not say that Pankratjev did only sacral objects. What I said was that he made mostly sacral objects. There is a difference. See my input 11.4. at 9.34 am. There I also mentioned about the differences in the frame and the time span.
Nevertheless, the other ЕПs. They are Jevdokina Panova 1893-94 in St.P, Jekaterina Parkkinen 1892-1910 in St.P , Jevdokim Petrov 1893-1895-1900 in St.P and Jegor Pojadin 1894 in St.P. Except for Parkkinen they are more or less “unknown celebrities”. Still we have this ЕП punched with the right looking kokoshnik 1908-1927 but in none of my sources is any information of this ЕП with oval frame working 1908~1917. Where was his workshop? How come that nobody knows that? My question is that is this later ЕП a maker’s mark at all? Is it possibly an unknown abbreviation like this ПТ mark that for a long period was thought to be an unknown assayer until it turned out to mean, ”imported goods”. Just wondering…
The next question is С.П.БУ ГЪ / С.П:БУ ГЪ mark. Hephaistos has stated that it is a retailer’s mark. Now mind my asking what was this С.П.БУ ГЪ’s street address in St P? Why isn’t he mentioned anywhere, phone books, registers, manufacturer’s lists, or/and advertisements in newspapers whatever, not a single note anywhere, only the strange mark on objects often but not always in connection with this as well strange later ЕП. Still this company is supposed to have been a rather big actor on the market., in addition, an exporter???
С.П.БУ ГЪ/ С.П:БУ ГЪ mark being a town mark is as well strange. What would be the purpose of such a town mark when the respective cipher is already in the kokoshnik???
OK, enough for a moment, but these are the open questions that Zolotnik (and me) rightly is asking answers to.
What I stated above does not mean that I deny С.П.БУ ГЪ/ С.П:БУ ГЪ being a retailer's mark. I'm just wondering what it is...
What information do you have in order to at least try to solve these puzzling questions?
for a better understanding what is talked about, 2 photos from the book Eesti kullassepakunsti suurkuju JOSEPH KOPF by Kaalu Kirme and Anu Mänd
Deer foot cup made by EP (ЕП), St. Petersburg
J. Kopf added the following: deer foot, coat of arms of the Schwarzhäupter and on the lid the coat of arms of Reval (Tallinn), also he engraved the donation text.
Platoon leader of the Schwarzhaupter fire brigade cup
The cup and the lid are made by different persons - one from Moscow and one from St. Petersburg.
The lid: P.L, St. Petersburg assay office
The cup: АН (Lat: AN), Moscow assay office
J. Kopf added the following: coat of arms and motto of the Schwarzhaupter, on the lid: helmet and ax of the fire brigade, donation text on the rim of the lid
just to remember: EП and С. П. Б У Г Ъ mark together on a spoon. Who is who and why is nothing known about them? Both must have had a big output when I consider the many spoons I see from them every week all over the world!
Hi all -
found some more of the "mistery marks" in different configurations. The spoons came from old Baltic families and could not be modern fakes. Meanwhile I believe that there was a fruitful trade relationship between Kopf, S. P. Burg and E. Pankratev - maybe this 2 firms existed only on behalf of the Estonian market for the Estonian market?
Here the punches - note the different makers/vendors.
Further I found an interesting cigarette case silver/enamel made by J. Kopf (or only sold by him - you never know...) with an unusual and unexpected portrait. The circumstances are
unfortunately unknown to me.
This thread is a fascinating read as an overview of Estonian Joseph Kopf as silversmith, retailer, and distributer within the larger context of the society and times in which he lived.
(more church related objects)
(nothing is known about her output)
(flatware for the gastronomy)
