Unknown maker of niello cigar box

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
found a cigar box in niello technique from Moscow but can not find the maker in my sources.
Any help welcome - please no Ivanov rumors....







Regards
Zolotnik

[bernstein]

Polyakov Dmitry Alexandrovich
Goldsmith, merchant of the 3rd order, owned a home-workshop, mentioned in 1852, address:Sretinskaya district, 1st block, 49. Moscow.
Initials on the hallmark:Д.П. ДАП
Hope this helpful to you.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
the shown St. Georg punch was in use 1825-1829 and the mark is Д .A. П - I am not really convinced.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Me either, the town mark is much older than the suggested maker. However, there is no assaying mark?????? How come? An object without an assaying mark could not officially be sold in Russia. An explanation would be that it was a gift, but......strange indeed!

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
strange case. For me the marks look good, the overall optic and quality fits to the time frame.only the format is strange. For the absence of the assay mark I have no plausible explanation - personal present from an otherwise unknown maker? I tend more to a Austrian - Hungarian or French box, later "upgraded" to a Russian box. The known format of Russian boxes for cigars or cigarillos look different:







Conclusion: Fake

Regards
Zolotnik

[bernstein]

It is common without assayer's hallmark if the article is too small to bear the whole set of hallmarks. But this box has enough space to bear whole set of hallmarks.

[bernstein]

From your pictures we can see the hallmarks stamped first then polished and gilt for sale. And without assayer mark is legal before 1873 if assayer think it is small enough. Do not struggle on maker's hallmark. If it is the same as PL or Ivanov i think it is made by computer and laser.

[Qrt.S]

@bernstein

It is not at all common with objects without hallmarks on the market. In general all objects put on sale had to carry maker's mark, assayer's mark, year and town mark. That was stipulated in the regulations, assay charters, ucazes, decrees etc. However, there were a few exceptions:

1. objects that weighted less than 2 zolotniks that is 8,5 grams
2. privately ordered gifts not made for sale
3. objects in filigree or hollow ones that could not be marked without damaging them or there was no place to put the marks.
4- objects specially made to the royal family
5. objects ordered by the royal court to be used in the court

What decree from 1873 are you referring to?

How many of such objects stated above do you bernstein think are sailing currently on the market? Not hallmarked Russian objects are in most cases spurious and the market is unfortunately crowded with them.
I told to you before and I tell you again: Read the regulations!

[bernstein]

Please refer Ivanov ASSAYING AND HALLMARKING IN RUSSIA(1700-1946) P.118.
Hallmarking like a leaf of a tree. If the tree is forged, it is useless to talk about the leaf authentic or not. Hallmarking is the last step not the first step to distinguish authentic russian silverwares. If you do not have this power, please study hard and hard.
Most of forged russian silverwares and enamelwares offer on top auction houses fail not in hallmarks, but the shape, motif, color and so on are not in russian TSAR style. Hallmark is easy to forged, but the spirit is very very hard.

[Qrt.S]

What is useless is talking to you because you are wrong again and as well misinterpreting the text. Try to understand what is a SMALL article. A cigarette box or whatever the object in question is cannot be considered as a small object. In addition, it is in silver not in gold! I wonder which one of us should study a bit more?
I will not discuss this further with you!

[Zolotnik]

Hi bernstein -

If the tree is forged, it is useless to talk about the leaf authentic or not.

Very true!

A little tutorial for your better understanding:

Small article (less than 8 Gramms), fully marked





Small article (more than 8 Gramms), fully marked






Bigger article and larger, fully marked



Fully marked means always: town mark, assayer in different form, silver/gold content, maker and control marks for small fittings , decoration or parts if necessary

Best wishes
Zolotnik

[bernstein]

I have an authentic Sazikov silver gilt purse in round shape and only 84, arm of city and ИС stamped on box outside. Without assayer mark only because the shape is round and the surface is not fit for hallmarks.
After i got this purse, i know Ivanov is right.
Everybody know the rules but not everybody know how it is manufactured. And some details are hard to forgers.
A proverb in china is gild the lily. Sometimes the forger stamps hallmarks too complete.
I just want to share some ideas with every russian silver fans.
Regards,
Lenny

[Zolotnik]

Hi bernstein

I would like to see photos of your purse and the marks - a proverb from the rest of the world: a photo tells more than thousand words...

Regards
Zolotnik