Dear readers,
I have some questions on hallmarks, stamped on platet silver for daguerreotypes. Often there is a stamp showing Agnus Dei, above it Doublé, under it J. P., on the left of this stamp another, a rosette (what does it mean?). On the right side a number (eq. 40) which shows the silvercontent. but how to compare with the copper? does 40 mean 40 parts of 1000 are silver, or is it out of 100 parts? Another plate shows E.R. 20, another shows a man (head until breast in an oval, surrounded by a laurel wreath. An other one has stamped PLUM(maybe the rest is missing) on it, or H.I, H and I in a round circle, the point between in the middle. Another one has written J.F.B. followed by a star and 40. Also H.B., followed by an eagle standing on the earth, followed by 40.
I have tried to look in all available books and in the www. to find out the makers and the period, but all books only show other hallmarks. is there anyone out there to help or to indicate a book for this type of hallmarks. (most of them seem to be french or american, within the peroid of 1840 and 1860)
Would be glad to hear from anyone regarding my request. pics available but no idea how to post them in this forum.
best regards
jawu
Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
Hi Jawu,
Welcome to the Forum.
It would be good to see some images of the marks you mention.
This should help:
How to Add Images
http://www.postimg.com is recommended as it is a very easy and free to use photohost. Embedded images, to a max. of 7 inches, get a far greater response than just posting links.
Remember to use the 'Preview' button before submitting your post. Do not use Photobucket links as there is a problem viewing them.
We look forward to seeing the marks.
Trev.
Welcome to the Forum.
It would be good to see some images of the marks you mention.
This should help:
How to Add Images
http://www.postimg.com is recommended as it is a very easy and free to use photohost. Embedded images, to a max. of 7 inches, get a far greater response than just posting links.
Remember to use the 'Preview' button before submitting your post. Do not use Photobucket links as there is a problem viewing them.
We look forward to seeing the marks.
Trev.
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
hi trev,
thank you for the install.guide.
let's see if i did it right.
best regards
jawu
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5838 ... kssmw1.gif
thank you for the install.guide.
let's see if i did it right.
best regards
jawu
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5838 ... kssmw1.gif
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
Hi Jawu,
This is a fascinating collection of marks. The subject of Daguerreotypes is something that I know absolutely nothing about and I had no idea that these pieces were marked in such a way.
I should imagine that the numbering system worked along the same lines as those applied to flatware. See: http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html
Image #4, especially, is typical of a French silverplater's mark, with the word 'Double' being a legal requirement.
Let's hope someone can enlighten us more on the subject.
Trev.
This is a fascinating collection of marks. The subject of Daguerreotypes is something that I know absolutely nothing about and I had no idea that these pieces were marked in such a way.
I should imagine that the numbering system worked along the same lines as those applied to flatware. See: http://www.925-1000.com/a_platenumbers.html
Image #4, especially, is typical of a French silverplater's mark, with the word 'Double' being a legal requirement.
Let's hope someone can enlighten us more on the subject.
Trev.
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
Hello Trev,
thank you for the link you sent. I found the Christofle balance with the silver content between the two parts of the balance. On a daguerreotype you cannot find this. there is a) nothing inbetween, or b) a star, but never a number.
The litereature tells the following on the numbers stamped on dags: a) the number says that this is f.example 40 parts of silver to 1000 parts of the total, or
b) this means 40 parts of the total weight of the plate is of silver.
Also I could find out, that Doublé means, that an "unworhty" metal (here copper) has got a layer of a "worthy" metal (silver).
In France it was a law to stamp the silvercontent of a plate for dag's onto the material, some american makers did so also, maybe to copy the french style which was very famous in the US.
As in France they had also two possibilities to get the silver onto the copper (electronical or hammeing), I cannot imagine how they measured the silvercontent f.e. "40" and what it really means. Is it really comparable with the process used with spoons and forks? If so, why Christofle does not stamp the number inbetween the parts of the balance on dag's?
Best regards and thank you for any idea why the Christofle stamp is different here.
jawu
thank you for the link you sent. I found the Christofle balance with the silver content between the two parts of the balance. On a daguerreotype you cannot find this. there is a) nothing inbetween, or b) a star, but never a number.
The litereature tells the following on the numbers stamped on dags: a) the number says that this is f.example 40 parts of silver to 1000 parts of the total, or
b) this means 40 parts of the total weight of the plate is of silver.
Also I could find out, that Doublé means, that an "unworhty" metal (here copper) has got a layer of a "worthy" metal (silver).
In France it was a law to stamp the silvercontent of a plate for dag's onto the material, some american makers did so also, maybe to copy the french style which was very famous in the US.
As in France they had also two possibilities to get the silver onto the copper (electronical or hammeing), I cannot imagine how they measured the silvercontent f.e. "40" and what it really means. Is it really comparable with the process used with spoons and forks? If so, why Christofle does not stamp the number inbetween the parts of the balance on dag's?
Best regards and thank you for any idea why the Christofle stamp is different here.
jawu
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
Hi Jawu,
I believe that would 40 grams of silver spread over a certain number of plates, but as to how many, I'm am not aware. There may have been some loose 'Industry Standard' operating at that time.
There is a lot of variations in the marks of Christofle, and part of that variation was to denote which of their factories produced the item.
Here is another couple of links that may be useful:
http://www.925-1000.com/a_christofle.html
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 38&t=19375
Trev.
I believe that would 40 grams of silver spread over a certain number of plates, but as to how many, I'm am not aware. There may have been some loose 'Industry Standard' operating at that time.
There is a lot of variations in the marks of Christofle, and part of that variation was to denote which of their factories produced the item.
Here is another couple of links that may be useful:
http://www.925-1000.com/a_christofle.html
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 38&t=19375
Trev.
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
Hello, fascinating subject, glad you brought it up. You probably checked the books by Gernsheim, Beaumont Newhall, Eder etc. and the ad-sections of early handbooks on photography ?
Just some thoughts: I checked a bunch of German books on early photography and came up pretty empty-handed. Looks like nobody so far dealt in detail with the question where all those plates came from. It was Daguerre himself who found out quite early that the process which eventually leads to the image on the plate works better on a silverplated metal plate than on one of pure silver. Guess that is where all those early makers of electroplated objects came in to get a piece of the cake.
Just a gut feeling but I believe that those makers (not just Christofle) used the same maker's mark on the daguerreotype plates as they used on their other plated goods. At a certain point (as early as the 1840ies ?) retailers for all kinds of photographic materials would get into the business and sell those plates, punched with their name, regardless of who the actual maker of the plate was. Checking directories for those suppliers and retailers may lead to the identification of some.
As to the numbers punched on some of the plates - might be an internal number of the actual maker or the retailer / supplier. Or it may point at the thickness of the plating as can be found on pieces of flatware.
Belive it was Dost (writing in 1922 on early photography in Berlin) who said that for many years in the 1830ies and 1840ies it was the Berlin court jeweller and goldsmith Hossauer who sold practically all of the plates used by daguerreotype photographers in and around Berlin. Could be that the book by Jonas on Hossauer sheds some light on this.
Best wishes, Bahner
Just some thoughts: I checked a bunch of German books on early photography and came up pretty empty-handed. Looks like nobody so far dealt in detail with the question where all those plates came from. It was Daguerre himself who found out quite early that the process which eventually leads to the image on the plate works better on a silverplated metal plate than on one of pure silver. Guess that is where all those early makers of electroplated objects came in to get a piece of the cake.
Just a gut feeling but I believe that those makers (not just Christofle) used the same maker's mark on the daguerreotype plates as they used on their other plated goods. At a certain point (as early as the 1840ies ?) retailers for all kinds of photographic materials would get into the business and sell those plates, punched with their name, regardless of who the actual maker of the plate was. Checking directories for those suppliers and retailers may lead to the identification of some.
As to the numbers punched on some of the plates - might be an internal number of the actual maker or the retailer / supplier. Or it may point at the thickness of the plating as can be found on pieces of flatware.
Belive it was Dost (writing in 1922 on early photography in Berlin) who said that for many years in the 1830ies and 1840ies it was the Berlin court jeweller and goldsmith Hossauer who sold practically all of the plates used by daguerreotype photographers in and around Berlin. Could be that the book by Jonas on Hossauer sheds some light on this.
Best wishes, Bahner
Re: Hallmarks on Daguerreotype-plates
hello bahner,
thanks for your reply.
i have already checkt all available book on dags between europe and the usa. quite a litte has been foun on hallmarks. the best still was written by the rinharts. hossauer was a german silversmith from berlin who came into busines rather early. he, f.e. stamped his name onto the plates, nothing else (we do have a dag on a hossauer-plate). the scovills from waterbury, conneticut did so also, plus a number for the silvercontent, as some others did. some of the stamps are, as I also suppose, names or initials of suppliers, not makers. it's a rather difficult area, quite a little information on suppliers, makers etc is left. but maybe someone has further information and even newer facts than the rinharts (he died 1996, she died 2003). so lets see, if s.o. can bring a little light into this kind of marks.
best regards
peter
thanks for your reply.
i have already checkt all available book on dags between europe and the usa. quite a litte has been foun on hallmarks. the best still was written by the rinharts. hossauer was a german silversmith from berlin who came into busines rather early. he, f.e. stamped his name onto the plates, nothing else (we do have a dag on a hossauer-plate). the scovills from waterbury, conneticut did so also, plus a number for the silvercontent, as some others did. some of the stamps are, as I also suppose, names or initials of suppliers, not makers. it's a rather difficult area, quite a little information on suppliers, makers etc is left. but maybe someone has further information and even newer facts than the rinharts (he died 1996, she died 2003). so lets see, if s.o. can bring a little light into this kind of marks.
best regards
peter