After I get enough opinions I will throw mine in the ring.
What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
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Francais
What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
This is possibly the oddest thing I have ever purchased. It came with a lot of Baltimore silver 1820-50. I actually think I know what it is, but I thought I would get some other opinions.
After I get enough opinions I will throw mine in the ring.
After I get enough opinions I will throw mine in the ring.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Claret spoon, similar in design to the version made by Allen Adler.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Hi Maurice,
Just shooting in the dark, a surgical scooped probe for clearing gunshot wounds?
Trev.
Just shooting in the dark, a surgical scooped probe for clearing gunshot wounds?
Trev.
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Close enough. I believe it is called a director & scoop. Evidently these things were regularly made in silver in the 17th, 18th and 19th c.
As nearly as I can determine they were not usually marked. While early surgeons didn't know about disinfection, they did know about dirt, debris and corrosion, so marking would be counter indicated. I imagine using silver saved quite a few lives, as it naturally, with time, disinfects itself. I am not sure they were used to remove the bullet itself, but they were used to scoop out debris, and of course locate the bullet. I think this might have been made by S.Kirk as it came in a lot of silver, all from that firm. I can find out next to nothing about early 19th c. surgical instruments on the net, silver or otherwise. You might notice the center area looks a bit like a faceted dental instrument that would allow the doctor to turn it, at will. Also the scoop bowl is slightly pointed, allowing easier insertion. Quite an interesting item, but I imagine there are not many collectors for these, as little is written about them.
Maurice
As nearly as I can determine they were not usually marked. While early surgeons didn't know about disinfection, they did know about dirt, debris and corrosion, so marking would be counter indicated. I imagine using silver saved quite a few lives, as it naturally, with time, disinfects itself. I am not sure they were used to remove the bullet itself, but they were used to scoop out debris, and of course locate the bullet. I think this might have been made by S.Kirk as it came in a lot of silver, all from that firm. I can find out next to nothing about early 19th c. surgical instruments on the net, silver or otherwise. You might notice the center area looks a bit like a faceted dental instrument that would allow the doctor to turn it, at will. Also the scoop bowl is slightly pointed, allowing easier insertion. Quite an interesting item, but I imagine there are not many collectors for these, as little is written about them.
Maurice
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
I am not so sure. This is what I understand to be a Director and Scoop.
As I recall what I have been told by those with medical expertise, the long part was used to direct a scalpel and the shorter scoop to sprinkle some sort of disinfectant or antiseptic powder so actually nothing to do with probing for a bullet. The topic featured in "The Finial" a good few years ago. Be that as it may, if my piece is a Director and Scoop, yours must be something else.
As I recall what I have been told by those with medical expertise, the long part was used to direct a scalpel and the shorter scoop to sprinkle some sort of disinfectant or antiseptic powder so actually nothing to do with probing for a bullet. The topic featured in "The Finial" a good few years ago. Be that as it may, if my piece is a Director and Scoop, yours must be something else.
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
I think they are just different versions of the same item. My source is "Antique Medical Instruments" by Elizabeth Bennion. In this part of an illustration on page 72 is this:
It describes the top one as spatula and scoop, c.1730 and the one like yours as a director and scoop. c.1848.
The text basically describes what I put down using the terms: directors probes scoops etc.
I am not sure when antiseptic powders came into common usage, but it was certainly the later half of the 19th c. I think the channeling on your is more likely to be a blood channel or what she describes as a "directing groove". She describes the scoop as being used "for cleaning foreign matter from the wound before and after surgery". I also found somewhere a tool somewhat closer to what I have described as a director and scoop. I think the only difference between yours and mine is the period and semantics. The ones illustrated and presumably yours are somewhat smaller than mine, but again I would think it depends on the type of surgery you are doing. If yours, and again I am presuming its size as around 5 inches, was used as a bullet probe on me it would be useless anywhere bigger than my forearm.
It describes the top one as spatula and scoop, c.1730 and the one like yours as a director and scoop. c.1848.
The text basically describes what I put down using the terms: directors probes scoops etc.
I am not sure when antiseptic powders came into common usage, but it was certainly the later half of the 19th c. I think the channeling on your is more likely to be a blood channel or what she describes as a "directing groove". She describes the scoop as being used "for cleaning foreign matter from the wound before and after surgery". I also found somewhere a tool somewhat closer to what I have described as a director and scoop. I think the only difference between yours and mine is the period and semantics. The ones illustrated and presumably yours are somewhat smaller than mine, but again I would think it depends on the type of surgery you are doing. If yours, and again I am presuming its size as around 5 inches, was used as a bullet probe on me it would be useless anywhere bigger than my forearm.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
I appears to me that there is too great an angle between the bowl and shaft on your piece to be of practical use, if it is intended for probing, etc. I have seen a number of such scoops and the bowl is always nearly straight, allowing the easiest and least damaging entrance to the wound track and the greatest maneuverability therein.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Hi Francais
Douglas Arbittier, the owner of " Medical antiques" is one of the leading experts in the branch of surgical instruments. He is also a very kind and helpful person.I was in touch with him some year ago,to identify a surgical set. Try to send him a picture.
Regards
Amena
Douglas Arbittier, the owner of " Medical antiques" is one of the leading experts in the branch of surgical instruments. He is also a very kind and helpful person.I was in touch with him some year ago,to identify a surgical set. Try to send him a picture.
Regards
Amena
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Thanks, Amena
I sent off an email to him. I didn't see anything similar on his site, except for a small brass and silver scoop in the for sale section.
Wev, I am not sure I follow your comment. it seems that mine would be better at extracting items than the ice cream scoop version.
Let us say you approach the object in a tube with the ice cream scoop version. When the end hits the object, you would have to bend the angle in order to get the scoop around it, hoping you don't just push it in further. With either of the other type of scoops, you would simply turn and push, letting the lower edge catch and surround the object. Having the item in the bowl, I would think of all the designs the one mine has would be most likely to extract the item.
Hopefully Arbittier will have some input. Quite honestly I am not too optimistic. I have a very ornate 16th century cleaver that none of the books or dealers seem to know exactly what it is, although several examples are known in sets. They can't seem to agree whether they are hunt or veterinary sets. I also have a very ornate pair of shears, not silver, which I have seen in museum catalogs as everything from 16-17th c Venetian to 19th c. Indo Persian. On my pair, because of an illegible mark, I decided the latter origin was correct, even though originally I was on the side of 17th c.
The problem I see with this tool is that it is not in a set, and so far I haven't seen another in a set, so people don't know how to put it in context. My guess is that because most sets are made in steel, that if you wanted one of them you had to go with your design to a silversmith. I can't imagine anyone collects them as such, since 3 would be one heck of a collection. According to Bennion they have been used essentially since Roman times, yet only a handful seem to be available to view.
I sent off an email to him. I didn't see anything similar on his site, except for a small brass and silver scoop in the for sale section.
Wev, I am not sure I follow your comment. it seems that mine would be better at extracting items than the ice cream scoop version.
Let us say you approach the object in a tube with the ice cream scoop version. When the end hits the object, you would have to bend the angle in order to get the scoop around it, hoping you don't just push it in further. With either of the other type of scoops, you would simply turn and push, letting the lower edge catch and surround the object. Having the item in the bowl, I would think of all the designs the one mine has would be most likely to extract the item.
Hopefully Arbittier will have some input. Quite honestly I am not too optimistic. I have a very ornate 16th century cleaver that none of the books or dealers seem to know exactly what it is, although several examples are known in sets. They can't seem to agree whether they are hunt or veterinary sets. I also have a very ornate pair of shears, not silver, which I have seen in museum catalogs as everything from 16-17th c Venetian to 19th c. Indo Persian. On my pair, because of an illegible mark, I decided the latter origin was correct, even though originally I was on the side of 17th c.
The problem I see with this tool is that it is not in a set, and so far I haven't seen another in a set, so people don't know how to put it in context. My guess is that because most sets are made in steel, that if you wanted one of them you had to go with your design to a silversmith. I can't imagine anyone collects them as such, since 3 would be one heck of a collection. According to Bennion they have been used essentially since Roman times, yet only a handful seem to be available to view.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Français
This is irrelevant to determining the original use of your item, but just to complete what I can say about my smaller “director and scoop”. Is is small, 15 cm or just over 5” long, and unmarked. I have looked up old issues of “The Finial” and found relevant correspondence back in early 2002 which arose from a question about the purpose of a “mini marrow scoop” of this form. A number of silver (but not medical) experts were of the view that it was for cleaning out wounds, with supporting evidence such as an example inherited from a nurse who had treated wounded soldiers in the early 20th century. However, one reply was from somebody who actually used this sort of implement as a dissecting aid in biology. He described using the long groove as a guide to enable a straight cut with the scalpel along a snake’s skin, for example, and the smaller scoop to sprinkle sodium borate on the skin once it had been removed. It might have been a half-memory of this that prompted me to mention sprinkling antiseptic in my previous post.
None of this is definitive as far as early 19th century or 18th century uses are concerned though I have seen at least one example in a set of medical instruments. And I'm afraid it doesn’t really help you!
This is irrelevant to determining the original use of your item, but just to complete what I can say about my smaller “director and scoop”. Is is small, 15 cm or just over 5” long, and unmarked. I have looked up old issues of “The Finial” and found relevant correspondence back in early 2002 which arose from a question about the purpose of a “mini marrow scoop” of this form. A number of silver (but not medical) experts were of the view that it was for cleaning out wounds, with supporting evidence such as an example inherited from a nurse who had treated wounded soldiers in the early 20th century. However, one reply was from somebody who actually used this sort of implement as a dissecting aid in biology. He described using the long groove as a guide to enable a straight cut with the scalpel along a snake’s skin, for example, and the smaller scoop to sprinkle sodium borate on the skin once it had been removed. It might have been a half-memory of this that prompted me to mention sprinkling antiseptic in my previous post.
None of this is definitive as far as early 19th century or 18th century uses are concerned though I have seen at least one example in a set of medical instruments. And I'm afraid it doesn’t really help you!
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
That is very interesting about the dissecting, but I don't think that it is right, not just because Bennion seems to identify it as 1848, i presume she had a reason for that specific a date, she could have just have easily said c. 1850. The other thing is I was never given a silver tool, in dissecting classes. Also I would think a scalpel would carve up a silver groove fairly rapidly.
I would like to hear more about the one in a set. What type was it?
The nurse sounds more convincing. I remember some surgeon being interviewed about some ancient Roman surgical tools, and he said they weren't very different to some items used today.
I think it is significant that both yours and mine are silver. You would think someone in the last 3 hundred years would say somewhere that you should use silver for some reason.
The only thing I can come up with is that surgeon's wanted a tool made to match their design, and silver was easier to have made to order than steel.
I would like to hear more about the one in a set. What type was it?
The nurse sounds more convincing. I remember some surgeon being interviewed about some ancient Roman surgical tools, and he said they weren't very different to some items used today.
I think it is significant that both yours and mine are silver. You would think someone in the last 3 hundred years would say somewhere that you should use silver for some reason.
The only thing I can come up with is that surgeon's wanted a tool made to match their design, and silver was easier to have made to order than steel.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
It is well known that silver has anti-bacterial properties, this is the reason medical and surgical instruments have been made of that metal since ancient times.
http://www.silverinstitute.org/site/sil ... /bandages/
Trev.
http://www.silverinstitute.org/site/sil ... /bandages/
Trev.
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Hi,
It looks like I am going to be disagreeing with all the heavy hitters. It is well known NOW that silver has antibacterial qualities, that is why I keep water in a silver cup beside my bed at night. But when was this discovered?
I presume this wasn't known before 1850 when antisepsis was first proposed, and not too well received. I do remember reading in Bennion, that some folksy vet, or farmer gave his secret for success as "i boils my tools", or something like that. So I don't think, and I could be convinced otherwise, that is why they made them out of silver. Not marking them, even in the 17th c. I can understand as a mark would just collect dirt, or crud, and even back then some doctors believed in cleaning their equipment.
In the meantime I heard from Arbittier, he doesn't think it is a medical instrument, primarily because of the shape of the bowl. I guess I should ask if I can quote him. He didn't seem absolutely convinced and said he would work on it. He questioned why it wasn't marked.
To me the faceting looks, more functional than decorative, which means to me, it is a tool. I can think of no other use for it.
This is the reason that it is very frustrating buying at auction, it is like looting an archaeological site and destroying the context. I know the family name of the owner, but even if someone in the family was a surgeon I doubt it would convince anyone.
Every month or two so my wife ask me what some silver item is used for, my standard answer is "a nasal passage enlarger", this might be a bit course, but it is better than the explanation a British friend uses. In any case it hasn't stopped her from asking, even after 40 years. I hope that it is not what this is, i still vote for surgical scoop.
It looks like I am going to be disagreeing with all the heavy hitters. It is well known NOW that silver has antibacterial qualities, that is why I keep water in a silver cup beside my bed at night. But when was this discovered?
I presume this wasn't known before 1850 when antisepsis was first proposed, and not too well received. I do remember reading in Bennion, that some folksy vet, or farmer gave his secret for success as "i boils my tools", or something like that. So I don't think, and I could be convinced otherwise, that is why they made them out of silver. Not marking them, even in the 17th c. I can understand as a mark would just collect dirt, or crud, and even back then some doctors believed in cleaning their equipment.
In the meantime I heard from Arbittier, he doesn't think it is a medical instrument, primarily because of the shape of the bowl. I guess I should ask if I can quote him. He didn't seem absolutely convinced and said he would work on it. He questioned why it wasn't marked.
To me the faceting looks, more functional than decorative, which means to me, it is a tool. I can think of no other use for it.
This is the reason that it is very frustrating buying at auction, it is like looting an archaeological site and destroying the context. I know the family name of the owner, but even if someone in the family was a surgeon I doubt it would convince anyone.
Every month or two so my wife ask me what some silver item is used for, my standard answer is "a nasal passage enlarger", this might be a bit course, but it is better than the explanation a British friend uses. In any case it hasn't stopped her from asking, even after 40 years. I hope that it is not what this is, i still vote for surgical scoop.
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
One other thought, why isn't it marked?
if it were just a letter opener, or something mundane, the odds are it would be marked. There is plenty of room, and most people want to take credit for making or designing something, and others want the reassurance of silver quality. I know we all have unmarked pieces, but for centuries the vast majority of pieces are marked. This finely crafted oddly designed piece, deserved to be marked, unless there was a good reason for not marking it. Ie. cleanliness.
if it were just a letter opener, or something mundane, the odds are it would be marked. There is plenty of room, and most people want to take credit for making or designing something, and others want the reassurance of silver quality. I know we all have unmarked pieces, but for centuries the vast majority of pieces are marked. This finely crafted oddly designed piece, deserved to be marked, unless there was a good reason for not marking it. Ie. cleanliness.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
One example in a set is at the science Museum in London: http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects ... 23874.aspx
It seems to be more like mine than yours but with a rounded rather than spatulate bowl if I can trust my eyesight and I don't have the medical knowledge to speculate what its exact use might have been in post natal treatment.
It seems to be more like mine than yours but with a rounded rather than spatulate bowl if I can trust my eyesight and I don't have the medical knowledge to speculate what its exact use might have been in post natal treatment.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
As stated in the link "The ancient Phoenicians knew enough to keep water, wine and vinegar in silver vessels to ensure freshness."It is well known NOW that silver has antibacterial qualities, that is why I keep water in a silver cup beside my bed at night. But when was this discovered?
Trev.
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Now you've convinced me, what you have and what I have are two different things. And now I am not sure what either is for.
By the way I asked my wife who is a nurse, who specialized in newborns. What anyone would use a five inch long scoop for treating postpartum bleeding is beyond both of us.
I looked up haemostatic sets on google, and found more than one example which showed what seems to be your item. Several use the term director and scoop. What one would use a director for is really beyond me.
Your theory about powder maybe works for the scoop part, as they used ergot to stanch the bleeding. I could even understand two scoops, but why would they use the term "director".
if the scoop was for medicine on yours, I guess the scoop on mine could have been used for the same thing, but why the odd shape on the bowl, and the faceting. The spatula on mine would work for counting pills, but i think that theory is more far fetched than a surgical
instrument.
By the way I asked my wife who is a nurse, who specialized in newborns. What anyone would use a five inch long scoop for treating postpartum bleeding is beyond both of us.
I looked up haemostatic sets on google, and found more than one example which showed what seems to be your item. Several use the term director and scoop. What one would use a director for is really beyond me.
Your theory about powder maybe works for the scoop part, as they used ergot to stanch the bleeding. I could even understand two scoops, but why would they use the term "director".
if the scoop was for medicine on yours, I guess the scoop on mine could have been used for the same thing, but why the odd shape on the bowl, and the faceting. The spatula on mine would work for counting pills, but i think that theory is more far fetched than a surgical
instrument.
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Francais
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
Sorry Trev., I missed your response.
I also missed that reverence, but I don't think that statement is convincing.
That sounds a bit like the ancient wisdom you often see on the discovery channel. I don't think we know much about what the ancient Phoenicians knew or didn't know. We do know they stored water, wine, oil etc in pottery amphora, not silver amphora. I think their use of silver drinking vessels was a show of wealth, the same reason they have always been used.
I could agree that silver was used for surgical instruments because someone discovered that fewer patients died, but then why didn't they boil there instruments. When antisepsis was discovered a lot of doctors ignored the theory for a long time. I would argue it is more likely they used silver just because it wouldn't rust, or again for reasons of status. Mid 19th c medical instruments were havens for germs, and essentially impossible to sterilize, with ivory handles, etc.
I also missed that reverence, but I don't think that statement is convincing.
That sounds a bit like the ancient wisdom you often see on the discovery channel. I don't think we know much about what the ancient Phoenicians knew or didn't know. We do know they stored water, wine, oil etc in pottery amphora, not silver amphora. I think their use of silver drinking vessels was a show of wealth, the same reason they have always been used.
I could agree that silver was used for surgical instruments because someone discovered that fewer patients died, but then why didn't they boil there instruments. When antisepsis was discovered a lot of doctors ignored the theory for a long time. I would argue it is more likely they used silver just because it wouldn't rust, or again for reasons of status. Mid 19th c medical instruments were havens for germs, and essentially impossible to sterilize, with ivory handles, etc.
Re: What is this tool, no marks, but probably American
If I may have a guess, I'll go along with claret spoon. The spoon bowl is right for that purpose and the shape the handle looks more "decorative that directive." Here's a book that is available on google that may be somewhat informative: A Catalogue of Surgical Instruments, Apparatus, Appliances, Etc
By John Weiss http://books.google.com/books?id=phTYtm ... 22&f=false
By John Weiss http://books.google.com/books?id=phTYtm ... 22&f=false