Dutch ? 18th century shoe buckle

[silvervault]

Hello to all!
Can anyone help me with the marks on this shoe buckle?
It's approximately 5,6 by 3,2 cm without the heart-shaped tongue. It weighs about 22grams.
There are 3 marks on the tongue, one appears to be a capital letter O, and a shield with 6 dots, maybe a towns mark? The third mark I can't decipher.
On the reverse side of the tongue there is an almost rubbed out date, point-engraved; 17...
Anyone any ideas?
Thanks in advance!

[oel]

Hi and again welcome to the forum,


City guild mark of Gouda, uncrowned for 2nd standard of silver or ‘kleine keur’ for .833 fineness. The date letter for Gouda, probably an O, for perhaps 1768 or 1793
Maker’s mark looks like a bird in a round shield, unfortunately I have no access to my library but if memory serves me well, it could be one of the bird marks used by: Pleunis van Geelen, registered in the city of Gouda during 1782-1807. Pleunis van Geelen became essayer and appraiser of the city Gouda in 1795. However the city of Gouda is close to the city of Schoonhoven, around 32 km apart, and the silversmith’s of Schoonhoven were known travelers and sold there items even in Germany and France. The Assay rules in Gouda and Schoonhoven were not always strictly obeyed and for small, light weight silver items both cities had little rules.
In Schoonhoven, two registered silversmith’s used a bird mark as their maker’s mark. The ‘dove’ maker’s mark has been contributed to: Abraham Eduart Hoek (1768-1793) and to Jan van Geelen 1759/60-1784 (died 1792). Both silversmiths’ registered in the city of Schoonhoven used a dove as their maker’s mark and perhaps were known in Gouda and allowed to have their small silver items assayed in Gouda. But again plenty of assumptions and uncertainties about the maker's mark. Next week I will be able to confirm or tell you more.
In the mean time for the maker's marks and city marks see:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028

Oel

[AG2012]

Is it genuine? Several details strongly support rather clumsy SAND CASTING. Besides, contours of holes are too sharp.

[oel]

Is it genuine? Good question. First the city mark; to me it looks genuine, and the date letter, square- like shield suggest 1768 and perhaps not 1793 but I have to check my files on that. The arrangement of the marks does not look wrong. The maker’s mark needs further investigation but my first impression not faked. Perhaps the buckle has been altered or tampered with? We are looking at images.
The quality of the work indicates Gouda or perhaps Schoonhoven. Both cities were known in the 18th century for some medium/low quality output and I believe the city guild authorities of Gouda dealt with some complains about the quality of their work and sloppy assay methods. For the same reason silver & gold presentation gifts, for special occasions , were often ordered in other cities like The Hague and Rotterdam and not made locally in Gouda.

Oel

[buckler]

If this buckle had English marks on it I would date to the late 17th century to very early 18th, certainly no later than 1720.
1768 or 1798 sounds way too late.
Or did the Dutch wear very much, by English or French fashion , outdated buckles ?

[oel]

After checking my book ’Gouds Zilver’, this particular city mark of Gouda has been used after 1727 (according to the city of 'Gouda insculpatieplaat 1727-1796’ or mark plate). As of 1661; Gouda used for silver of 2nd standard the city mark uncrowned. However if we assume this particular city mark to be used 1661- up till 1727 than; maker’s mark; a bird looking left in a rounded shield could be for; Cornelis van Roon, registered around circa 1630 till around 1660. Date letter O could be for 1671.
Question could Cornelis van Roon have worked until 1671 and are the books not giving a correct date? Yes perhaps but I am not sure and maybe we are looking at an unrecorded maker’s mark or other.
We can rule out Pleunis van Geelen (registered in Gouda during 1782-1807) the makers’ mark he used have the contours of a Finch (bird) looking to the right and always without a shield. Actually Pleunis was the son of Jan van Geelen registered in Schoonhoven from 1760-1784 makers’ mark the contours of a Finch looking left and a Dove looking left. Those same marks were used by Abraham Eduart Hoek(s)

I will ask some experts and as soon I know more I will inform you.

Hi Buckler,
Our Dutch Prince of Orange, William III as of 13 February 1689, ruled as your King in England & Warwickshire. William III his shoe buckles were trendsetting in the UK. We introduced our Genever, you call it Gin and you got rid of the French wine. The Dutch are never outdated but…thanks for the tip!


Best,

Oel.

[buckler]

A date of 1671 seems far more realistic than one hundred years later, so I think you are correct in reassigning the date


Warwickshire was ruled solely by Queen Mary , wife of William of Orange. We had a private deal, not known to many historians.
As a result we still pay no taxes, but each householder must give the reigning monarch a bunch of tulips each Christmas. We buy them at Tescos .

[buckler]

On a more serious note you do sometimes find buckles of archaic form.
A few days ago I viewed an auction with one buckle which made me very excited. It appeared, from the front , to be English of the 1720 -1730 period. Extremely rare . Examining the back it was marked 1803 and had a makers mark we recognised. My wife has a pair of tongs dated 1800 in the same pricked out script and with the identical makers mark.
Søren/Severin Ferman Quist who worked in Kragerø 1762-1847. It was Norwegian ! And well out of period style
So it could that your original date is correct. Military buckles in paricular are often archaic in form. And very misleading.

[silvervault]

Hi to all!
And thanks for the replies!
First of all, I stand corrected, as you all can see, the marks are not on the tongue but on the plate opposite to the tongue, but I do not know it's proper name.
As a reply to AG2012, it indeed looks like it is cast, but I don't know what casting technique was used. Does this speak for or against it's authenticity? And during the 17th and 18th century, what were the actual production techniques involved in making silver buckles?
As to it's age, I only suggested 18th century because of the faint engraving, but this could have been done to an item that already had some age to it at the time.
If it turns out to be 17th century, would the engraving suggest that it was reused a century later?

Maybe by someone who had a very old skool fashion sense (only kidding :-) ? But like Buckler' post already suggested, every style has got it's revival. Unfortunately for us, the 80's are back! :-)

I'm eagerly awaiting Oel's further investigations and for the time being I'll just cherish it as being a little enigma.

[AG2012]

Sand casting is the easiest casting process to perform in a non-professional setting. It was used in 18th century but then chiseled or embossed. The example given here is far from being the best work, but the silversmith did his best to improve the pattern. But, as oel said:

We are looking at images

This is always the problem here.

[oel]

Hi All,

White smoke out of the experts’ chimneys and it looks like the maker’s mark could be a swan in a circle for; Anthony Gabry, born 6-10-1746, who worked in Gouda around 1767 up till 1811, registered as a goldsmith and shop keeper (winkelier), died 13-12-1819. The date letter O for 1768.
Another expert confirms my previous statement; maker's mark dove in a circle either for; Abraham Eduart Hoek or Jan van Geelen. Both registered ‘Schoonhoven’ silversmiths had their work sometimes assayed in the city of Gouda.

Oel.