A very confusing salt spoon

[Granmaa]

I have been puzzling over this spoon for days. It is a perfectly normal fiddle pattern salt spoon, the quality is normal.
The hallmarks, however, are most strange: the lion passant is facing the wrong way, the leopard's head is lopsided, the duty head is poorly impressed and not easily identifiable, and the maker's mark is unfamiliar to all my silver books.
On seeing the reverse lion, I immediately thought York 1793-1808, and indeed the date letter is similar to 1804. But, if it were York, why is the leopards head uncrowned? And also, my directory of York goldsmiths does not have a D.B. Help!

Miles



.

[nigel le sueur]

Miles

l must admit although at first glance l to would of thought a York item,when the marks are enlarged they are all wrong, l think it is one of those items, which the victorians faked the marks on so a quick glance by the user they would be fooled into thinking it was real silver ?
l must admit it is the most blatant l have seen and very close to the real thing. (unlucky mate)

Nigel
.

[Granmaa]

Nigel,

I thought about that as well, but I am in no doubt that this is silver. It looks like silver, it has a patina like silver, it tarnishes like silver, it bends like silver and it's soft like silver and so has a worn drop on the end. The workmanship is good but not so perfect as a plated item would be. Trust me, this item is most definitely silver.

Miles
.

[claretjugcollector]

From 1793 - 1808 the lion passant is sometimes found facing right !!
look at jacksons hallmarks by ian pickford cycle IX - kind regards tom
.

[claretjugcollector]

did not read exactly ... you know that already... :-(
.

[Granmaa]

No problem Tom,

Miles
.

[georgiansilver]

Miles, your spoon may well be silver but possibly a fake of much later than apparent date, designed to fool the unwary collector. Many such items appear on the market and are at least worth the scrap value of the silver or more to anyone who is unscrupulous enough to try to sell it on.
I have a couple of gold chains which I was caught out with many years ago which really look the part but I know are fake, as a consequence of which I will never sell them to keep them off the market.
This is only one explanation of course and whatever investigation your item needs should be underaken to establish the truth.
Best wishes, Mike.
.

[Granmaa]

Mike,

It's hard to tell a real piece from a later copy just from a picture, so you'll have to take my word: after handling thousands of spoons I am certain that this is pre 1850. Also, I can understand with your gold chains, but is there much point faking a salt spoon? And if it were a fake, why have the lion facing the wrong way round?

Miles
.

[georgiansilver]

Only suggested maybe fake but stamps on fakes are usually inaccurate and may include lion facing wrong way as a result of reverse made stamp.
Also Leopards head may be out of shape....box may be wrong shape for apparent year....makers mark non-existent or wrongly stamped with dot in wrong place etc etc. So many variations.
All types of spoons have been faked by people out to make money even if they only make a few pounds an item...all mounts up. As I said mate...more research.....definitive answer is available somewhere.
Best wishes, Mike.
.

[admin]

Miles,
I think the marks may well be pre-1850 American pseudos. Can't find an appropriate DB in my refs, but they are limited. I'll move the topic into American coin in a couple of days, but will see if anything turns up here first.
Regards, Tom
.

[2209patrick]

Canadian marks sometimes have the lion facing right.
A possibility might be David Beaule' (or Bohle, not sure), Montreal, Canada (c.1831). He used a DB mark.

Pat.
.

[Granmaa]

Thanks Tom; in fact, I did buy this spoon from the same seller who sold me those American Demilt spoons.
If they are American pseudo marks, would this spoon have been intended for sale in America.
I've included a picture of the back as well. Notice the way the hallmarks stretch onto the stem unlike similar spoons such as the one picture beneath. This must mean the punches are bigger.

Miles



.

[2209patrick]

I just received a book on Canadian silver marks. From what it says David Bohle (from my earlier post) did not use pseudo marks and did not have a period after the D.

Daniel Bewes(1844-1853), Quebec City, used a D.B mark in a rectangle with a period after the D. He also used pseudo marks: a lion, leopards head, a letter and a Fleur de lis. The book only describes his mark , no pictures, so I don't know which way the lion is facing.
Just thought I'd offer another possibility.

Pat.
.