Tastevin Maker's Mark, c.1730

[Granmaa]

Does anyone know the maker's mark on this tastevin which I believe was made in Paris between 1727 and 1732?

Miles

[Francais]

Hi
could you post a picture of the whole piece, sides, bottom, any engraving, and are you sure there are no other (very small) marks?
Maurice

[Francais]

Hi,
Being new to this site I should explain. It is not Paris, as the maker's mark does not conform to Paris rules. Without checking I know the region it is from as I have several 18th c. tastevins from the same region. But quite honestly I don't want to spend the time necessary to identify the mark and find that I could do it quicker with more info.
I also should have asked it the letter before the CL is identifiable using a loupe and changing the lighting. Often maker's marks will be listed by the first letter, and without it more time will be expended.
Maurice

[Granmaa]

Hi Maurice,

There is one other little mark in a circle, and it's full of dirt. I will try to get a photo of it in a couple of weeks.
Unfortunately, the first letter of the maker's mark is not readable.

Miles

[Francais]

Hi
A circle or an oval? You can use a wet wood toothpick to clean it out. I presume no engraving?
I may not be home by the time you photograph it, so you might just clean it now and send me a description. also describe anything else you see about the piece. I will try to look it up this week.
i know it is Macon or at least the region of Dijon.
Maurice

[Granmaa]

Sorry for the wait.

Here is a photo of the other mark.

Miles

[Francais]

Hi
That doesn't help much, you need to take a moistened wooden toothpick, or a very fine soft brush, use a little silver polish and try to clean up the last mark.
Right now I can't make any sense of the combination of marks, and I will not be able to access my library for several weeks after tomorrow.
Maurice

[Granmaa]

[Francais]

Well that is what I was concerned about. That is fairly certainly the Paris monkey discharge mark of 1775-81, we recently discussed, which was on a snuff box. I don't remember every seeing that faked.
Unfortunately I don't recognize the C mark and the A mark is a rare 1727-32 charge mark. I am not sure I have anything with that mark on it, and i would have to look, for a comparison. Paris marks are commonly faked, but I don't see this one on any of the faked tables. Of course it makes no sense to have a charge mark and a more than 40 year later discharge mark on the same piece.
The maker's mark is not totally legible, so it is difficult to look up. it has the three OOO mark, which is found on maker's marks in the Dijon region or more exactly in Macon and Chalon sur Saone. It certainly is not Paris. These are towns were a lot of wine tasters were made.
It would be necessary to see lots of pictures to determine whether or not the taster is old or not. Quite honestly, my suspicion is that it is 18th c. as no modern faker would mix marks from different areas. Of course if it is 18th c. I can come up with only one explanation. I am almost forced to say it is somehow a very old piece with old faked marks, something I have rarely seen, and never on a piece of French silver. In some rural areas silversmiths marked their pieces with just 3 maker's marks, or sometimes a town mark and a maker's mark alone, etc. But faking marks was a dangerous thing, until much later. It would help if you posted a lot more pictures, to give an opinion. But I don't think I can come up with a good explanation for the marks. Perhaps someone else can come up with one.
Maurice

[Granmaa]

How curious! Thank you for you help so far.
What photos would you like to see?

Miles

[Francais]

Well it is just an outside chance there might be some hint as to a solution. So I would take a picture of the whole bottom, the snake handle from the side and there seems to be some engraving, that might help, and finally a picture of the side where the marks are to see the placement of them.
I will not be able to get at my library for about 3 weeks, but I will remember to look again at that time.
Maurice

[Granmaa]

[Granmaa]

Looking more closely I found another, very tiny, mark which looks like a boar's head.

Miles

[Francais]

Hi
Back again, sorry for the wait. That is a boar's head. It is a later French guarantee mark no doubt added later, which happened fairly often. Bardou is a not uncommon name, found all over France so that doesn't help. The taster looks fine, and old. It just has what to me are inexplicable marks. I guess I could come up with an explanation, just not a good one. As I said it looks good, and the marks look real, they just are not supposed to be that way. I would enjoy it, as much because it is a puzzle.
Maurice

[JayT]

I believe that these marks are spurious with the exception of the boar’s head mark. They sort of look ok, just like a knock-off luxury watch might look good at first glance. But on closer examination they don’t make sense. The French marking system can be confusing, but it is heavily codified, and there must be concordance between the marks.

Specifically, the outline of a mark with 3 rings from Mâcon should be heart-shaped rather than circular and have a date letter incorporated at the bottom — this mark does not. A similar mark, also from the Burgundy region is that of Chalon-sur-Sâone. That mark has 3 rings, but should have CS at the bottom. In other words, this mark mimics one from a maison commune in the Burgundy wine-producing area but is not authentic. A crowned A charge mark from Paris that somewhat resembles that of 1726-1732 (crown should be more on the side of the left leg of the A) would not be found on an object made in Burgundy, and vice-versa. A Paris discharge mark from a later time period does not make any sense, nor does the crowned C mark.

Wine-tasters have been a popular collectible since the nineteenth century, and there are many “olde French” examples out there which were sold not necessarily with intent to deceive, but as fun tourist items or as advertisements for wine producers. The maker of this wine-taster stamped a boar’s head to show the silver content; the other marks are pure fantasy in my opinion.

[Francais]

I am curious where you got these "rules" for Mâcon and Chalon-sur Saône maker’s marks. I rarely read all the books I have, but I don't remember ever hearing of them either. As a citizen of France I can assure you the various governments we have had make up all sorts of laws and taxes, and the French then figure out how to get around them. There were in fact rules about marking of silver which changed constantly and were often ignored. In fact there are hundreds of French silversmiths who lived in smaller, less regulated, towns who just marked silver with their maker's marks, usually struck 3 times. Then of course there are hundreds more who lived in the colonies. I have over the years found numerous examples of "inconsistencies".
Flipping through " Les Orfèvres de Bourgogne" I found numerous examples of the three rings mark and various cartouches, including circular ones. I was going to count them, then debate the CS comment and the date letter comment, but then I realized my mistake. When I looked for a name ending in L to find the mark, I realized the last name could be C-L or G-L.
Eureka!.
So here is the explanation. François GUILBERT-LATOUR. 1721-1793
He was apprenticed in Paris in 1736-1745. He was accepted as a master silversmith in Chalon-sur Saône, but would have to wait for the next available spot. Then went for two years to Louhans, a very small agrarian town, where he was the first silversmith, and it was too small to support him. Then he went to Auxerre his birth place. Now Auxerre is part of Burgundy, but was not part of the area of Dijon. It is part of the jurisdiction of Paris. Helft shows a drawing of an “A” mark similar to Paris and the one on the taster. But he kept his mark from Chalon, where it was struck. So we have a Dijon mark, on a Paris piece. But we are not quite out of the woods. He only made a masterpiece in Auxerre in 1847 too late to be struck with the A mark. To me it is just an inconsistency, not a block. Perhaps he bought a partially made piece, who knows. The important thing is that it is his maker’s mark and the monkey mark would have been used in Auxerre legitimately. As I said in another posting I have never seen that mark faked (it may have been, but I have never seen it).
I am posting the very poor photo from the Burgundy book. It is easy to see differences, which can be caused by aging of the stamp, etc. But please concentrate on the spacing, and size of the rings and the spacing of the G and L, etc.
My final comment is that while I have not had the taster in hand, it looks like it has good patina, something that cannot be faked. Faker’s usually follow the rule to make things easy to recognize, no one is going to go through all this effort to sell a relatively inexpensive piece. I would buy this piece in a New York second.
Maurice

[JayT]

Hmm… You tell a complicated tale with some inconsistencies in dates. As a citizen of France, too, believe me I know all about French bureaucracy - rules and regulations. But I don’t think one’s nationality has place on a silver forum.
I stand by my observation that this is a reproduction piece dating to the nineteenth century. I have seen similar examples for sale in Beaune.

[Francais]

I didn't know I couldn't be French on a forum. I quite honestly regret choosing the moniker Francais, I only did it out of frustration as twice I mistakenly used my business name, and didn't know how to change it.
Could you show some examples of these fakes in Beaune, perhaps one will have the monkey mark I have never seen faked? The only ones I have seen are mostly by one manufacturer, they shouldn't fool anyone. In forty plus years of buying French silver I can't ever remember seeing a convincing fake, most are amateuristic. Faker's can't spend a lot of time faking things, it takes away from the profit. Personally I think a lot of the "fakes" are real, but show inconsistencies. Most French fakes are from Hanau, and could only fool a rank amateur. Also how about some sources on your comments about the marks, their cartouches, date letters, CS, etc. I don't mean to be rude, but I gave you my sources. Your comments seemed, to me, to be a bit extraordinary, could you give us some sources. I think the point of an open forum is to instruct, not just give opinions as if they are fact. I am certainly ready to admit it if I am wrong, but show me some proof. I am trying to be fair, and polite. Sometimes the written word does not convey an intention. I spent some considerable time trying to be accurate on this subject. I don't think it is appropriate to rely on reputation on what is basically an anonymous forum. I am perfectly willing to continue this discussion by private message, and see no reason this discussion should become personal in public.
Maurice

[dognose]

Hi Guys,

Firstly let me say how interesting this discussion has become. As one who has always found the complexities of French hallmarking, challenging, to say the least, I have learned a lot from this topic, as I'm sure others have as well. With friendly debate we can all expand our knowledge, and yes, it is good to question the opinions of others as the result is that we often get to the correct answer as we learn from each other.

So please keep the debate public, and friendly, none of us know it all, and many of us know very little, so the continuation of the public discussion benefits us all.

To provide the vehicle to willingly and freely share one's knowledge is the very reason why this forum was founded.

Regards to all, Trev.

[Francais]

If you search for the silversmiths name, you will find a number of tasters by him have sold. I doubt his mark is shown on any as they are mostly subscription services, like Artfact. However this one is interesting as it shows the same odd little marks in front of the serpents head.

http://www.place-des-encheres.com/fr/lo ... lot=191273

Finding the owner's name is always a bonus. Here is a possibility.
http://gw.geneanet.org/galatee1?lang=en ... l&n=bardou
Jean Gabriél BARDOU
You will notice his profession is vigneron and he lived in Vincelottes, less than 15 km outside of Auxerre.
so I G BARDOU D V, would stand for Jean Gabriél BARDOU de Vincelottes.
I think that ends the discussion, unless someone can find out what the C mark was on one of the tasters that sold.
Maurice