Just purchase trouble with I.D.

[VeryBigKahuna]

Just purchased this knife, it is dated 1758, with a mark on the blade, and additional engraving on the handle. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Had to post links to images [sorry]. Board was giving me " It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image" error.

http://www.whitingweb.com/eBay/IMGP7707.jpg
http://www.whitingweb.com/eBay/IMGP7708.jpg
http://www.whitingweb.com/eBay/IMGP7709.jpg
http://www.whitingweb.com/eBay/IMGP7710.jpg
http://www.whitingweb.com/eBay/IMGP7711.jpg

[Francais]

I believe you have this posted in the wrong place. It looks like Dutch to me, although I couldn't positively rule out Scandinavia or North German. I don't think the blacksmith mark is going to help much, as it is too hard to read, and there are few lists of them anyway, but you might include your best reading of the characters. I presume the date is engraved somewhere on the handle, and there are absolutely no silver marks on it, even remnants?

[Francais]

While looking for a spoon for another post, I ran across at least 3 knives close enough in style with horse and rider on page 164 of Nederlands Klein Zilver, so I can say with some certainty it is Dutch. Unfortunately the iron maker's marks were not the same.
Maurice

[oel]

Most often popular trends & styles are copied by silversmiths.
The horse and rider does not make it typical Dutch, perhaps a tulip or windmill does.
Yes, there are Dutch examples but the lack of any hallmarks, or at least the absence of any Dutch marks, makes it pure speculation. To pinpoint it to be Dutch is not based on hard facts.
The dotted initials are perhaps of the previous owner, I guess made late 19th century, engravings could have been done any time.


Oel.

[Francais]

I presume you don't have a copy of the book I mentioned. It is not just the horse and rider, but the shape of the handle, and even the blade.
Again, if you have an example of the knife closer in style, made in another country, I would love to see it. I originally stated it could be North German etc., but when you see three knives so close, I would thoroughly doubt it is not Dutch.
Maurice

[oel]

I use "Het zilver Lexicon" and it does show a similar knife called “Leeuwtjesmes” translated "Little -Lionknife", originated late 18th century with round handle with a typical Dutch decoration of: acanthus leaves, shell decors and scrolls and with a little lion;


The knife in question:


Yes, could be Dutch or continental and hard to tell. The blades sometimes are not very helpful. I know of silver knifes with Dutch hallmarks in the handles and Sheffield or German marked steel blades and I know of one knife with old Dutch guild marks in its handle and a later replaced silver blade with British hallmarks.


Oel.

[Francais]

My only point is that now I have seen 4 Dutch knives of this style and none from any other country. North German and Dutch styles are often very similar, but I doubt that is so in this case. Knife blades can often be replaced, but regional styles exist, and I have often pegged a country by the blade on a knife, even before looking at the silver.
As to whether or not it is Dutch, I suppose one could argue that it might be American, that a Dutch silversmith, who took some knife blades with him, went to New York and made the knife. Or I suppose one could say the same of some of the Dutch colonies in the Far East
Personally I would bet that some of those horse and riders were made from the same mold, or molded off the same mold, none of the photos are good enough to tell.
When I try to determine the origin of a piece of silver, I use a variation of Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is the best.
So far we have 4 to nothing in favor of the knife being Dutch, so as far as I am concerned it is Dutch.

[oel]

After a little more research, I tend to agree with you but I like to use the word Dutch in appearance and yes we clearly have a Dutch connection, but we lack the comfort of any Dutch hallmarks to support it. So far we might have forgotten to mention the word fake. Herewith another example; from a well known internet auction site with description ; Antique Dutch Silver 18th Century TABLE KNIFE HANDLE. Dog Terminal.


Pseudo hallmarks and a legal Dutch hallmark; the sword or standard mark for small work and we see the (over struck) maker’s mark AH1 for; Alle de Haas or Firm A. de Haas, known for using pseudo marks and in business from 1879/1966.
The only thing I would like to add; unfortunately today a silver item without hallmarks, could be a fake, and you might be in for a Dutch treat.


Oel.