Roman emperors on German silver?

[Francais]

I have had a fair number of German pieces over the years with medallions of ancient Roman emperors on them. If I remember correctly most were repoussee beakers, from either Augsburg or Nuremberg. In any case they were always domestic pieces, as let's face it, that is what you find most of the time.
I always thought that this must be a reference used by the Holy Roman Empire to the ancient Roman empire. I guess you could call it finding their roots. So anyway, I was researching a piece, and looked through Selig, and checked out the internet. Evidently the use of these medallions must be relatively rare, at least on larger pieces. So now I am not sure what the point was, what were they saying. I can't find anything written on the subject, although I have to admit, I only did a quick Google search, and looked through a few books.
So how about some opinions, preferably with references.
Maurice

[Francais]

I should have said this profile is on a spoon from 1730, with a crest already posted, from Augsburg. I should also point out that the profile may actually be of Charles VII. I have occasionally recognized profiles on silver, but this one doesn't fit. In 1730 Charles was only a duke of Bavaria (which works for the Augsburg origin) and Prince-elector of the Holy Roman Empire. If this is his profile, why would it be 12 years early. A bit of flattery, or perhaps a hope?
Maurice

[Joerg]

Hi Maurice

You make it real hard! You want not just opinins, but with references. So I am in the process of doing some research to support my opinions. This will take some more days. However here in the meantime some thoughts:
First, identifying the person. Have you considered a medaillon based on a Roman coin from Vespasian? See for example here:

(admin edit - please, no linking to commercial websites - see Posting Requirements )

The nose is quite distinctive, and the crown (Strahlenkrone) is common on Roman coins. So I consider your title correct, Roman emperor.
Second, I am convinced this is not a contemporary portrait. No European ruler since medeval time issued pictures from himself with such a crown. I am not 100% certain yet, but I am not aware of any such European coin or medaillon.
Third, this is not at all the elector from Bavaria. In 1730, the "Pragmatic Sanction" was in full development. The agreement, that the husband of the daughter of the Habsburg emperor will become emperor. The agreement was spoiled in 1740 by the Prussian king and France mainly. The bavarian elector just jumped on while the process was ongoing. In 1730 it was absolut impossible that the bavarian elector indicated a desire for the title of the emperor.
Fourth, you pointed out you see such medaillons mainly on beakers. Here is where I need more research, but I think the solution lies in the word Roman. If someone founds some Roman coins, he would either melt them down or create some jewelery or crafts items. To make a baker out of old coins is a very logical use. An so this became a fashionable decoration for silver items. Original old coins or newly made similar medaillons. From there these medaillons found their way on flatware. Though, the high time of such medaillons on flatware is 100 years later, during Biedermeier. (Guess why...)

I would love to try to put this medaillon in context with the whole spoon, including the crest you mentioned. Could you publish the spoon and what you know of it?

Thank you

Jörg

[Francais]

I don't think I explained myself well or at least I wasn't understood well. I don't really demand references, it just depends on how logical or consistent the opinion. A few times I have read some pretty wild suggestions, without any real basis. For instance I thought most of your comments on the ecu were brilliant, and much appreciated. I see you link was deleted, but I am fairly well acquainted with ancient roman coins, and that sort of crown was very common. I didn't really think it was however a portrait of a particular emperor, as most just seemed to be generic busts, although I don't deny the possibility. I would wonder how a silversmith would choose one over another, perhaps on how much they liked Christians. I am not sure either way on an 18th century ruler using such a crown either, but I thought the nose was very similar to that of Charles VII. And I think there can be little doubt that the Holy Roman Emperors considered themselves as inheritors of the ancient Roman Emperors. I see your point about the elector of Bavaria, and presume you are more acquainted with how it worked than I am, so my idea is wrong, I kind of hinted that myself, since it seemed too early.
Here is the spoon and coat of arms:


The spoon is a monster, the second biggest I have ever had, approximately 37 cm long. Augsburg c. 1730 by Johann Wagenknecht.
As far as the emperors on beakers, the ones I have seen were all repoussee like this one:


The beakers and tankards with lots of coins, which I have seen, were all relatively contemporary to the piece. I don't remember ever seeing ones with ancient coins, but I may be wrong. The roman coins on silver we see here are mostly on silver c. 1850, when the craze took off. I remember some that really looked like coins. I had a Gorham set, that would have fooled a lot of people.
I am very happy to get your opinion on this. I should add that I have given up trying to figure out this coat of arms, at least for now.
It is a bit similar to that of Bremen, but not close enough. You would think a simple one like this would be easier to find.
Maurice

[Joerg]

Hi Maurice

What I wanted to say (I know, sometimes I am a little complicated...) is the following: I have not done enough research to propose, what your medaillon means. However, I am quite sure what it is not. It is not a portrait of a contemporary ruler, 17th or 18th century. I am certain due to the "Strahlenkrone". This type of crowns was not used after christianisation. (at least I am not aware of any coin from medeval or modern time bearing it). And why I additionally ruled out Karl VII is in the post from yesterday. I am sure your medaillon is a reference to a roman emperor. Why a spoon for a baronet from 1730 bears a portrait of a roman emperor, this I do not know. By the way, the portraits of the roman emperors from Augustus up to Severius Alexander (d. 236) are quite distinctive. You can recognize the emperor without reading the legend.
As you stated, I am also not aware of tankards bearing antique coins. However, I was guessing, why a silversmith decorates a spoon with the profile of a roman emperor. Most probably because this profile was readily available to him, on an antique coin.
I know I should not start a new topic here, but I have to remark, the portrait, laurel head, on your baker looks to me contemporary, not roman. The portrait of the ruler from the place the baker origines or was used.

Kind regards

Jörg

[Francais]

I think we now agree on the spoon. I suppose if I ever identify the coat of arms, it may tell the story.
I went through Selig, and will do so again, I was surprised at how rare pieces with Roman emperors are in this volume, although I have always thought they were quite common.
On the beaker it is Augsburg, and you will see from this photo, which I should have posted instead of the other. The image is of a Roman emperor. I was really just posting it to show that it was repoussee. I guess I will look for other examples.
Maurice