15th century Augsburg plate? Somone know this maker?

[s777]

Hello, I have very old German plate from my grandmother , that looks me pretty interesting item for collectors. Many years ago someone told me this is 1663 plate by Mathias Geggler - but I cant find any proof of that. Please help !

[Hose_dk]

Its very buatiful. Not as old as you think. Shape is baroque but the leaves are rococo.
My guess would be that its approx 1880.
But thats a guess.

[Francais]

I agree with your friend from years ago, and respectfully disagree with Hose_dk. If "someone" told you many years ago, he was very good or very lucky. Seling only published the maker's mark you show, with the odd curve on the M, in his suplement. No doubt the mark is right. The date mark is very hard to read from a photo. You might carefully clean it with a little polish and take another photo. The base is right for the period, but I am having trouble reading the dots. Starting from the bottom it should be 3,4,2,1. But it is not terribly important as Gegler had a very short working period master in 1666 and dead by 1677. In my opinion the decoration is quite right and it is clearly parcel gilt by fire or mercury gilding, which is essentially not found after 1840. Also you notice the line between the gilding and the un-gilded silver, that is rarely found on electroplated vermeil. One small problem is the crest, which I think is likely later. Is there any other or another mongram? Finally I will leave it to our German contributors to give the object a name. It is often called a sweetmeat dish in English, although I prefer to call them Wine tasters or drinking bowls.
Maurice

[Francais]

I guess I should also point out that 1677 makes it 17th century not 15th, I presume a typo.

[s777]

I guess I should also point out that 1677 makes it 17th century not 15th, I presume a typo.

Oh, sure - this is a typo, should read 17th century. Thanks a lot for you contribution, it's a pleasure to get so mathematically sharp knowledge. I am not an expert, but many years ago I took this piece for evaluation to experienced collector. After my rock heavy refuse to sell : he gave me small piece of paper with "Mathias Geggler , Augsburg, 1663" . It was no internet that times, and I simply stored this plate and note together. Now, I found it in my table drawer, googled it - and got nothing (possibly because he spelled Geggler and not Gegler) .
I tried to read the "strawberry" with magnified glass, and it looks me more like 3-3-2-1 , will make good picture tomorrow and add to the post.
Gilding applied inside , and only 5-7mm wide line outside. I thought it was applied later, to preserve silver, you say it possibly original plating?
The crest is definitely made later, and not matching style, depth of work and pressure
I also found some "snake" mark on the bottom, that looks me original to the maker. Will add the picture later.

Maurice,
Many thanks again for you post! I am very exiting to have such old and beautiful piece of history. It is outstanding forum
Dmitry

[Francais]

The "snake" mark was just where they removed some silver to assay. A picture of it adds nothing. I guess I should explain that murcury gilding is an amalgam of gold and murcury that is then burned off by heating. The murcury is long gone, so no danger. Augsburg used a somewhat lower grade of silver as did most of Germany and Strasbourg. Silver has a taste, and especially lower grade silver, because of the copper alloy. So gilding was popular as gold has no taste. Also lower grade silver takes to gilding better than higher grade, or so it is said. So drinking vessels were gilded inside and on thee outside lip. But gold does not discolor, and so the outside decoration often looks better after the silver has taken on some oxidation in the details. Hence most Augsburg beakers, tasters, etc were only gilded on the outside on the lip, and on beakers at the base. The center of the outside was ment to show differntiation by oxidation. I hope this is understandable, as I probably didn't explain it well. In any case, your piece is very nice. Of course I don't know what you were offered for it, but I must say the market has not treated these bowls well recently, and if you had gotten a fair price let us say 20 years ago, you might do better with money in the bank. Of course it sounds like a family item, and one cannot compete with sentiment.
Maurice

[s777]

I couldn't even imagine more complete and better answer, you covered literally every possible issue. Many thanks, Maurice!

[Francais]

Flattery always works, I took another look at the date mark, it is either 1670 or 1670-74.
Maurice