?Tallinn/Estonia? 900 candlesticks

[historydetective]

I have a pair of candlesticks, each with a removable bobèche, that are 9.5 inches tall and quite heavy. They have 4 markings:

I believe this mark to be a version of the city mark for Tallinn (also known as Reval), Estonia, pictured on page 362 of Tardy's book; it changed form slightly over time.

In 2005, Sazikov2000 and Blakstone had a discussion, and the following remarks were made that may or may not pertain to my candlesticks: "On the silver of the silversmith Joseph Kopf from Reval (Tallinn) one can find next to the Kokoshnik the Kyrillik initials "AP" from Alexander Wassilewitsch Romanow (1903-1908) from the assay office in St. Petersburg," and "After 1924, it was the first time allowed to fabricate silver with a content of 800/1000," and "Estonian silver is very hard to categorise and one must have seen many, many different pieces to know what it is and where from it is in reality."


And from an article by Willand Ringborg for ASCAS, Russian Silver Assay Masters in the Western Provinces/A case study of Estonia in the 19th centruy: "Sometimes one can see the sample of the proof master or the alderman (eldest brother, chairman) of the guild, a zigzag pattern as on an adder close to the other stamps on the bottom of the piece."
By the way, I have seen modern versions of this same type of candlestick produced by the Jezler factory. Thanks so much for your help!
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[Qrt.S]

Let me put it this way.

The cross for Tallinn was used during the 1800-century and earlier but not later.
Showing the purity in thousands (900) started in the late half of the 1900-century.
It’s not from Russia because there are no Russian standard marks i.e. kokoshnik, maker’s mark etc.
Aleksander Romanov was an assayer in Imperial Russia during the turn ov the century 1800-1900 and not a maker.
In addition this “AP”-mark doesn’t look like his mark for assayed pieces
It was anyway strictly forbidden to assay anything with the lack of maker’s mark and there is no maker’s mark.
900/1000 is not even a Soviet purity standard.
If the alderman’s zig-zag is on the same piece, it makes it even more doubtful because the zig-zag wasn’t used after about 1810 anymore.
Conclusion: Too many contradictive marks to match you assumption (sorry for that).

What I think is, that this is a rather new candlestick from the 2000-century.
The maker is AP, whoever it is.
The purity is 900/1000 silver.
It is probable made in Europe but not in Estonia.
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[Postnikov]

Hi historydetective -

it is me (Sazikov2000) who had this discussion with Blakstone about Baltic silver. I had to change Sazikov2000 to Postnikov for this forum because it is my pseudo on a wellknown auction site - this is against the rules of the house
here.

First - it is a very nice pair of candlesticks!
Second -I can underline 100% what Qrt.S wrote.

Regards

Postnikov
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[Qrt.S]

Ahaaaaaa! That explains the sudden mysterious pop up of Postnikov :-). No wonder I was wondering...:O :O :O...
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[historydetective]

I'm so lucky to have top experts helping me! I love this site. Question: do you have an idea where they WERE made, Postnikov? And were they made as imposters, or are these legitmate, but newish, marks from somewhere? And lastly, your guess as to age is in the last 20 years?

I don't see how it was profitable for the manufacturer of these sticks to go to the considerable trouble of handmaking them (hammer marks are visible on the underside of the bell-shaped bases) in very high quality and then selling them close to the value of the silver, but I will enjoy them, even though they're not from circa 1900 Estonia as hoped. They look so beautiful in winter holiday settings. I have noticed that the pattern is still being legitimately made by Jezler of Switzerland, but with very different marks.
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[JAKJO]

Hi historydetective,

I assume that the candlesticks are Swiss, you mention that you have seen a pair made by Jezler and have seen a pair made by Schelhaas (in Zürich?).

Hope this helps,

Best regards/JAKJO
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[historydetective]

Yes, Jakjo, the little cross for Switzerland does make sense - thank you, and thanks to all who replied. This thread has been very interesting and enlightening. These candlesticks aren't quite as old as I'd hoped, but they're still as lovely. Happy Holidays!
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[JAKJO]

Hi Historydetective,

I have know found some forks and a spoon made by the elusive (Swiss?) maker AP but this time in 800/1000.




Hope this helps,

Best regards/JAKJO
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[Joerg]

Hi everybody

I think makers AP may exist quite often, in many European countries.
The only AP's that makes sense from the Swiss references are Jean-Frédéric-Alexis Pochon from Berne, (1804-1865) and Ludwig Heinrich Adolf Pochen from Berne, (1836-1899). But in all samples from the Catalog of the Swiss National Museum the are not coming together with a 800 or 900 mark. The are together with a city mark of Berne.
Maybe it is Pochon but I am not at all sure.

Regards

Jörg
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[historydetective]

Excellent, Jakjo! Thanks for keeping my mystery candlesticks in mind. And, thank you, Joerg, for the possibilities. The answer is out there, and it's closer thanks to all the good minds here.
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[Francais]

I don't know if this is going to help, but I a have some spoons which certainly look Swiss, with the same mark as the candlesticks but only the AP. Sorry the mark degraded so much, but it is the same.

[historydetective]

Thanks, Francais - the mark on your spoons definitely looks the same as the mark on my candlesticks. Do you get a feeling about the age of your spoons? The monogram is quite lovely and looks old.

[Francais]

Good question, but I don't think I am the one to answer it. Most American spoons can be dated within 10 years or so by style, obviously with exceptions. I don't think the same can be said of this period of Swiss silver. Whereas this pattern was replaced in America with a pattern with shoulders, in Switzerland the opposite seems to be the case.
My guess would be around 1840, but I would say it could easily be 20 years before or after. I think we need a Swiss expert to weigh in.
Maurice

[Joerg]

Dear all

No, I an not an expert, but Swiss. And with some experience in look and feel of late 19th century Swiss spoons. I hope this qualifies for a response.
I think we can attribute all shown "AP" to Pochon in Berne. They were active until late in the 20th century. (1987).
The mark from Ludwig Heinrich Adolf Pochon (1836 - 1899) matches the example from Francis and JAKJO. And also the mark from the original candlestick question.
To the dates:
The spoons from Maurice between 1860 and 1880. More closing in I propose around 1870. Spoons in this period were typically rather thin and light. I hope they are not heavy, this would be confusing.
The set from JAKJO a bit later, 1880 to 1890. What is the small mark on the left to the "800"?
The candlesticks could be everything after 1880.

Kind regards

Jörg

[Francais]

Well they are a little heavier than normal 5.1 troy oz. for 6 spoons, but they are a little longer than 16cm. So I would say they qualify for dessert spoons and therefore would be heavier and studier than teaspoons. I agree with Joerg as to the age, I think 1870 is right and 1840 was wishful thinking.
Maurice