Coffee pot.

[huszas76]

Hello everyone!
Today I made some pictures about this little coffee pot. It's around 15 cm-s tall.


I'm not familiar with this type of marks, but I think, it's belgian. I hope, someone can help me, and could verify or deny my opinion. I think, the 77 with the crown is the year, when it made. So I think, it's from 1777. The G it's maybe Gent?
The 3. mark (Is an anchor?) could be the maker's mark?

Please, if someone knows this marks, and the maker, share with me, I would really appreciate!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Francais]

In case Oel doesn't answer, that is not the mark shown in my book for Gent's G of 1777. While different it looks closer to a mark shown in a book of Dutch fakes. I would look it over very closely to determine if it is legitimate.
Maurice

[oel]

Hi Krisztián,

At the moment I have no access to my books about Belgian silver guild marks & maker’s marks and/or Fake Dutch silver marks but could check after the 29th of April. At first impression and without consulting my books, I am afraid I share Maurice’s conclusion. What can you tell us about its provenance?


Oel.

[Francais]

If you need an answer before Oel gets back, I can assure you the G is not the same as shown, and really doesn't look similar to any of the Gent marks I have in my book which are all have quite ornate crowns.
If the book of fakes Oel is talking about is the little red book by Citroen, I have it, the marks aren't in there, but there are some similar marks. I have my doubts on what I see in the pictures, I don't see much patina on the bottom, and that centering punch looks very light. Is it raised when you look inside or seamed?

Maurice.

[Francais]

By the way for what it is worth, none of those marks are shown in the non-German section of Rosenberg.
Maurice

[oel]

Hi,
For comparison: during 1772-1798 the city of Gent used a Crowned G and a Helmet in contour




Your 3rd mark perhaps not a maker’s mark but supposing to be a Helmet in contour
Oel.

Gratitude; Zilvermuseum Sterckshof Provincie Antwerpen

[Francais]

I have had very little experience with Belgium silver, but the book Silver in Belgium 1500-1800 in English and the two languages of Belgium shows 3 Gent G marks are shown 1678-1680, 1719-1722, and 1777. None look anything like the one on the pot, odd that the museum shows a mark similar, but significantly different to the one on the pot. Makes one wonder, is the book wrong or the museum. I still think the item looks a bit off, of course a quick inspection of the inside should tell the tail.
Maurice

[Francais]

Could you give a link to that museum, and the piece with those marks. Trying to find it reminded me of my last visit to Belgium. All over French Belgium we seemed to run into dual language signs. In Flemish Belgium the only thing I could easily read, was a tapestry that was in Latin. I finally figured out that two different road signs in Flemish both meant "Detour". Unlike Holland were almost everyone could speak English, or would listen to my pathetic attempt to speak Dutch. Almost all the Flemish said they spoke English, but none we ran into either understood us or could be understood by us. I am sure that is a bit of an exaggeration but I am sure if the Museum is wrong it won't be the first time.
Maurice

[oel]

Here you go but the text is in Dutch and it does not show the complete items.
http://home.scarlet.be/~hlvb/het%20land ... zilver.htm
To my knowledge for the city of Gent, the crown above the G is a 'simple' one and the helmet in contour often hard to recognize. The museum is not wrong.

I believe the marks on the coffee pot could perhaps be a little spurious and the maker's mark seems to be missing. However I prefer to consult some book first before drawing a firm conclusion. So far I have only done a little Google search.


Oel.

[huszas76]

Hallo Maurice and Oel!
Thank you for your quick answers and interest!
I know someone at one of the hungarian auction house, and he showed me the item. When I made the pictures, the pot was after a little renovation by a silversmith, that's why the patina missed.
I'm just curious about the marks, which i see rare, that's why I ask your oppinions. I think, always good to learn!
For the other hand, I thought, the public of this site always ready to see new items and very helpful. And that was right! :)

I did a little research in the internet too.
I find a similar pot in the ascasonline's newsletter 2010 september with the same marks, but without solution. So if we find the truth here, it will be help for this another pot's owner!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[oel]

Hi,
http://www.ascasonline.org/newsSETTEM76.html
William Moering known British importer of Dutch silver with pseudo hallmarks and Hanau (style/pseudo marks) silver.


Oel.

[huszas76]

Thank you guys!
For Maurice: It's raised!
Oel! Thank you for your info about Moering!
After april 29 could we return to this object, when you could acces your books?
Thanks both of you!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[huszas76]

Hello Oel!
Can you check the sources about this pot? I would appreciate it!
Thank you!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[oel]

Hi Krisztián,

Your image;

and

From; Biografisch Lexicon van de Gentse edelsmeden 17de & 18de eeuw

Your coffee pot lacks a master’s mark, please compare your date letter, and city marks of Gent; contour of helmet & crowned G and draw your own conclusions. Further more, I never have seen William Moering import marks in combination with authentic 'old' continental hallmarks, always in combination with pseudo Dutch/Hanau style marks.


Best,

Oel

[huszas76]

Dear Oel!
Thank you very much for your help. Your post was wery seductive! Thank you for the pictures, I've never seen before belgian marks from this time!
Best regards!
Krisztián