TEA CADDY - Help with marks - FRENCH? ITALIAN?

[gianda]

Hi everyone and thanks for trying to help on the matter! Am a first time poster and hope you guys would be able to help.




I got this circular box in India, in an antique market known for selling objects which once belonged to Maharajas and Indian princes.
It is guilded on the inside, measures 13cm dia 14cm height by 320grms.

First question is obviously related to the provenance of the object. There are only 2 marks on the inside of the box. (have looked everywhere even under the casted lid handle/flower)
I have had an extensive look on various forums and websites thinking at first that it could be a French piece because of the crab,and/but it has also the 800 mark which was normally used in Italy. Unfortunately there is no Makers mark, which I find a bit odd. Unless the crab is the makers mark. Had a look through the italian makers marks database and couldn't find anything, but the city of Venice used round makers marks with different symbols inside it.

Here my thoughts, what do you think? Is it French, Italian or you reckon it comes from somewhere else?

Second question would be on the approximate manufacturing time. I think it could be a liberty piece made between 1880-1910. What do you think?

Third question is its use. It could be a powder box (but is way too large at 13cm diameter by 14.5cm height. ) a Tea Caddy, a biscuit box. Wright or wrong on the possible use?

THANKS IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COMMENTS AND HELP!

Bye
Gianda

[Francais]

Welcome to the forum, nice pictures. It is not French for a number of reasons. I am reasonably certain it is not Italian. The Italians didn't usually use insects or arthropods, perhaps a cultural thing, and it would, as you noted, have a maker's initials. So I would say it is more likely Eastern European, or Middle Eastern. There are any number of countries who used the 800 mark. I am not sure when it became common, but certainly after the beginning of the 19th c. The style isn't going to be much use, as that swirl was introduced at least by the 18th c. and never went out of use since. Gilding started centuries ago with fire or mercury gilding, but yours is more likely to be electroplated gold on silver, and therefore after 1838. I wouldn't be overly concerned about what it was used for. The country of origin might answer that question, but even then you could only perhaps say what it was first sold for. For example what is the difference between and Ethrog box and a tea caddy? You could maybe draw some conclusion from the gilding, as it would be gilded to protect the silver from corrosion, for example, by tobacco.
I checked Rosenberg and Tardy for the mark, my guess it is going to be a bit rare, and you are going to be lucky if someone recognizes it.
Maurice

[gianda]

Thanks Maurice for the precious info. If you're pretty sure it is not french because it would have a maker's mark, then we could assume that the Crab is actually the makers mark and that the 800 is the hallmark?
The italians on the other hand did write initials on their makers marks, and here being none, I would say it is not from italy. At home we do have quite a bit of italian silver and it doesn't look like there is any similarity in the marks, now that I've checked. That even though our silvers are probably more then a century older then this piece.

Eastern european or middle eastern... would be very difficult to find this crabby makers mark I would say... Use I agree with you, unless someone comes out with the origin, it is not going to be much use.
But here another piece of info. The dealer who sold me this box had another which was the little sister box to this one. only difference it had a white gold or platinum plated inner and was marked 900 instead of 800.

That is all I've got on the piece. I guess I'm going to start with looking at Crimea, Russia, Turkey and Greece. Lets see if something comes out. Any suggestions on other countries I should look at.

Thanks,
Gianda

[Francais]

I am certain it is not French, it is missing initials, guarantee marks, etc, etc.

I am not sure what the crab mark is, it is most likely a maker's mark but since I have never seen it before I can't be sure.

The 800 mark could have been placed by a control agency, but it might just as well have been placed by the silversmith.

Without knowing the age (stylistically without judging patina, construction, etc it could be any time in 200 years) it would be difficult to say where it was made.

You can, I believe, rule out Russia. Did the other box have the same crab mark, and nothing else, besides 900? If so it might be more modern, which is really a problem as it is even harder to find modern marks. I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from doing research, but you have had 67 views. The other contributors have books the same as I do, and a lot of experience, give it more time. But if no one comes up with an answer, I am going to bet you won't be able to find out on your own. But if you do, it is more fun than being told.
Maurice

[legrandmogol]

Hi, based on the style of the piece and the way the 800 is marked, I have a feeling that your piece is Indonesian or some other South East Asian Country. Also it was found in India it is even more likely that is from South East Asia. Asian silver seems to find its way to India far more often than European silver

[wolfgang]

French Silver is hallmarked with Minerva head + Makers Initials in lozange from 1839 on, never 800. Almost the same piece will be sold by

(admin edit - please, no linking to commercial websites - see Posting Requirements )

today at 21:13:20 - Nr 1609/1720 - 20th century, nice coincidence

regards
Wolfgang