18th century salver - probably Irish
18th century salver - probably Irish
Hi All - I have this 22cm salver which looks 18th century and probably Irish. The marks are very rubbed and partially lost in the reverse of the engraving which is struck very deeply. but think i can make out the crowned harp and possibly a gothic capital T for 1739. The third mark is rubbed into oblivion and I can find no trace of a maker's mark anyway. Small old repair to one foot. More to ask as to any thoughts as to whether it is Irish and whether the engraving is likely to be original, and whether George II would be an accurate description. I can't read the motto on the armorial - it's too rubbed so suspect little to help there. The crest looks like a hand in armor holding something. The underneath looks only half finished. I have only read about the engraving on early Irish pieces including a variety of farm and domestic scenes - this one including geese and swans and what looks like a parrot, although is probably something else. But have never seen a an Irish piece of this vintage so am unsure - many thanks Frank.
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WarrenKundis
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Re: 18th century salver - probably Irish
Good morning Frank,
I will definitely concur on the Dublin and the gothic date latter T for 1739. Was spinning my iPad around to explore other possibilities such makers mark in gothic letters or script. After going through all of the Irish marks here and Silver Makers Marks UK saw nothing to lead me to believe that it's other than a date letter. also compared it to 1708 and 9, the particular curve of the top left side of the T along with the globular form on it's left and the very distinct shape of the cartouche appears to lead to 1739.
The other partial mark in image #7 does not appear to be a duty mark, assay mark, or Britannia mark. Is that a capital D? Need to take a break then will return to the markers marks again.
Best of luck.
Warren
I will definitely concur on the Dublin and the gothic date latter T for 1739. Was spinning my iPad around to explore other possibilities such makers mark in gothic letters or script. After going through all of the Irish marks here and Silver Makers Marks UK saw nothing to lead me to believe that it's other than a date letter. also compared it to 1708 and 9, the particular curve of the top left side of the T along with the globular form on it's left and the very distinct shape of the cartouche appears to lead to 1739.
The other partial mark in image #7 does not appear to be a duty mark, assay mark, or Britannia mark. Is that a capital D? Need to take a break then will return to the markers marks again.
Best of luck.
Warren
Re: 18th century salver - probably Irish
Hi Frank,
Does the base show any sign of alteration? Prior to around 1740 the central pedestal foot was the usual style to be found in Irish silver for these salvers, after that date we see the increased popularity of three and four legs in the way of support. Of course many of the old trumpet foot salvers were updated around this time and in the following decades, the evidence left behind being a central ring that can sometimes still be made out on the base that offers a clue to the dating.
Trev.
Does the base show any sign of alteration? Prior to around 1740 the central pedestal foot was the usual style to be found in Irish silver for these salvers, after that date we see the increased popularity of three and four legs in the way of support. Of course many of the old trumpet foot salvers were updated around this time and in the following decades, the evidence left behind being a central ring that can sometimes still be made out on the base that offers a clue to the dating.
Trev.
Re: 18th century salver - probably Irish
Hi Warren and Trev
Many thanks for taking some time on this.
Warren, I've had another look at the mystery mark 7. I am fairly sure it extends beyond the "capital D" section. If it is a letter, I would have to guess a small g. If anything it looks like the top right portion of a second crowned harp. Or could it be the bottom left portion of Hibernia? Perhaps not. I'll try taking some fresh pics in natural light tomorrow. Occasionally the camera can reveal things I can't see.
Trev, I've studied that central ring and it definitely corresponds to the armorial on the front. There is a deep scratch and small indent at about 9 o'clock but don't think these would have been from a central foot. You can see the repair just above the foot at 9 o'clock. It's been well executed because it doesn't show on the front. There is this strange off-centric ring around the edge that actually extends into the skirt all the way to about 10 o'clock. I can only assume this must have something to do with the engraving. I suspect the armorial was done by a different hand. The engraving while it still reflects on the reverse, is not as deep or as crisp. Maybe after it was purchased.
Appreciate it - thanks Frank
Many thanks for taking some time on this.
Warren, I've had another look at the mystery mark 7. I am fairly sure it extends beyond the "capital D" section. If it is a letter, I would have to guess a small g. If anything it looks like the top right portion of a second crowned harp. Or could it be the bottom left portion of Hibernia? Perhaps not. I'll try taking some fresh pics in natural light tomorrow. Occasionally the camera can reveal things I can't see.
Trev, I've studied that central ring and it definitely corresponds to the armorial on the front. There is a deep scratch and small indent at about 9 o'clock but don't think these would have been from a central foot. You can see the repair just above the foot at 9 o'clock. It's been well executed because it doesn't show on the front. There is this strange off-centric ring around the edge that actually extends into the skirt all the way to about 10 o'clock. I can only assume this must have something to do with the engraving. I suspect the armorial was done by a different hand. The engraving while it still reflects on the reverse, is not as deep or as crisp. Maybe after it was purchased.
Appreciate it - thanks Frank