Repouse chased low chalice, French Hallmarks? Looks 1690ish

[judhael]

Hello,
I recently picked up a low chalice or small pedestal bowl that has repouse chased decoration depicting 2 angels and one "human" amidst flowers and foliage that is very 1690s looking. The bowl is small, a mere 4 1/4 inches in dia. by 3 1/2 inches high. There are 3 marks just below the rim and to the right of the human figure. The left mark is a crown (Paris mark?), the next mark looks like a shield with 3 "pellets" above it. The mark looks to be sideways. The last mark on the right also appears to be sideways (left edge of the mark is the top) and it looks like a chalice with 2 pellets to the left, a pellet beneath and there is something in the mark to the right that "fades" into the decoration.
Any help on the marks would be great. Any help with the story the bowl tells would be great too. One angel holds what looks to be a massive pestle, the "human" with his back to us appears to be holding a post of some kind with one end in the ground. The right figure, another angel, is holding what looks like a spear with the point in the ground. The floral decoration is very similar to a covered cup in the Untermeyer collection.
Here is the cup and marks.

[judhael]

OK, so I was in a hurry last night trying to get this bowl listed for response and I'll admit my pics are not the best. Here is another shot of the side of the bowl in natural light. I have "pointed out" the hallmarks. Below that is another shot of the marks, and hopefully a better one than previous. Admittedly my reference on European silver hallmarks is limited...hope someone can help me nail this down.
Judhael

[Juke]

Hi,

I have some comments related to the marks, in general the marks don't look so sofisticated as the French marks from that period. None of the marks don't look like typical makers mark on French silver that have in them letters, crowns etc. The left mark could be the charge mark but the photo is not good enough to tell. There should also be a wardens mark which is a crowned letter indicating the year and the discharge mark. Therefore I would say it is not French. The bowl could of course be a provincal made bowl but anyway it should have the marks according to the principals of the French assay system.

The bowl itself looks good quality but some reservations of its origin so it could possibly be a later copy or the bowl is from that period but it is not French but German. I would recommend you to contact a well known auction house to get confirmation.

Regards,
Juhana

[judhael]

Hello Kerppola!

I tend to agree at this point. The bowls quality is without question, the marks are the bugaboo. I thought this to be French at first and posted it in that section of this forum, but the site administrator, with wisdom he/she is not yet sharing, moved it to the German section. This seems to be more accurate, I have since done some searching on the 'net and found loads of similar decoration from 1550 to 1700 on German wares...not so much the French. The hallmarks appear to have been affixed and then the chalice/bowl was further worked or chased...The center hallmark looks most like German makers marks from that era...I just wish I knew what fount of information the site administrator (a person of great knowledge from my previous experiences here, I might add) was working from to move the piece so quickly. Was it the marks or was it the chasing? I'm just curious because he/she has been so knife edge accurate in the past that the opinion they used to move the item from one forum to the other may shed light on the origins and age of the piece.
Thanks again for your opinion, I am no longer under the assumption that this is French...that attribution was based solely on the crown hallmark which is very similar in shape to the Paris discharge mark of the late 17th century. The other marks were the enigma at that time....but I have only owned this bowl for 6 days as of tonight and haven't had time to scour all the possibilities....here's hoping more opinions come in.
Merry Christmas!
Judhael

[admin]

Sorry, you give too much credit, nothing more than my gut told me it is a very good late 19th century Hanau piece - so I moved it here. I await a knowledgeable response with as much anticipation as you.

Regards, Tom

[MLF]

Just a comment really: The figures on the bowl are wonderfully proportioned. I wonder if you could you describe the scenes in some detail please?

Kind regards

Mikael

[judhael]

Hey,

Well there we go again. I was unaware of Hanau silver, and the site administrator moved the bowl from the French forum to the German forum on his/her own volition due to "a feeling"...well, your feeling looks to be correct. The goblet hallmark on my piece is the same goblet mark shown as a Hanau hallmark for Schleissner & Söhne; Hanau c. 1900

A quick search on Google after reading the site administrators note (above) and I discovered several sites that discuss the product and hallmarks of the Hanau region along with the propensity to mistake these wares as much older silver (my example fits nicely into that scenario...I felt this was late Renaissance)...and while it is very nice silver (the piece has good weight for size and incredible detail) it is common for people to want things to be what they think they are...again, me. And I know better. Anyway, to the site administrator I offer a heartfelt THANKS again and now I need to get scouring the local shops for more.
Judhael

[blakstone]

Yep; these marks are identified as Schleissner's in Scheffler's Goldschmiede Hessens, marks 448, 449 & 487.