please help thank you.
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Need help with moskow kokoshnik maker's mark..cigarette case
Need help with moskow kokoshnik maker's mark..cigarette case
please help thank you.
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Its rather difficult to help you because your photo of the marks is not sharp enough. Kindly, take a new and bigger one. Use the camera's macro function if it has such a function. Its symbol is usually a flower (tulip).
Anyway, the only thing I can tell you before the new sharp picture is, that the cigarette case is in silver (84) 875/1000 and made between 1908-1926 but where (Russia) and by whom remains to be seen from the new picture.
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Anyway, the only thing I can tell you before the new sharp picture is, that the cigarette case is in silver (84) 875/1000 and made between 1908-1926 but where (Russia) and by whom remains to be seen from the new picture.
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I'm sorry to disappoint you Postnikov, but the the right looking kokoshnik assay office mark was without any doubts at all the only law obeyed upto 1927. (Sorry my typo 1926.)
It is a common misunderstanding this year 1917. The revolution did not change the use of this mark. What has probably happen is that it has been a typo (1917) in a book and this has been copied into many other books, among those Rothemund, Watts, etc. Believe me, the correct dates are as from 26.3.1908 to 22.6.1927. A new mark, you could call it "rabota", was implemented 23.6.1927. Please check/revise your sources. You will find the correct dates in Postnikova, Ivanov and probably also in Troepolskaja.
Ssmin, kindly tell me what is the cipher right of the kokoshnik, unfortunately I cannot see it clearly. It is crucial information when defining the master. There are some other alternatives too.
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It is a common misunderstanding this year 1917. The revolution did not change the use of this mark. What has probably happen is that it has been a typo (1917) in a book and this has been copied into many other books, among those Rothemund, Watts, etc. Believe me, the correct dates are as from 26.3.1908 to 22.6.1927. A new mark, you could call it "rabota", was implemented 23.6.1927. Please check/revise your sources. You will find the correct dates in Postnikova, Ivanov and probably also in Troepolskaja.
Ssmin, kindly tell me what is the cipher right of the kokoshnik, unfortunately I cannot see it clearly. It is crucial information when defining the master. There are some other alternatives too.
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HI Qrt.s -
23.6.1927 came the new punch - but before the now communist Russia did not have great interest and possibilities to produce significant silverware in the up to date known volume. All known factories were closed, the ownwers fled, shot or on their way to Sibiria - who needed punches? The main production were orders and medals (silver, gold or platinum), these were never stamped with a kokoshnik mark after 1917, only MONDWOR etc. In my collection are several "communistic propaganda cigarette boxes" with red enamel stars, banners, workers, redarmists etc., all with the new mark -but from 1927! I have several presentation boxes, dated 1917 - 1922 by the donation text - but they have the kokoshnik and what is very interesting- the smith´s stamp from Abakumov (1898), Nazarov (1908-17) etc. showing that these boxes where either stolen, confiscated or simple leftovers. The postrevolution years were terror pure!!! You are absolute right when you say the new punch came in 23.6.1927
Regards
Postnikov
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23.6.1927 came the new punch - but before the now communist Russia did not have great interest and possibilities to produce significant silverware in the up to date known volume. All known factories were closed, the ownwers fled, shot or on their way to Sibiria - who needed punches? The main production were orders and medals (silver, gold or platinum), these were never stamped with a kokoshnik mark after 1917, only MONDWOR etc. In my collection are several "communistic propaganda cigarette boxes" with red enamel stars, banners, workers, redarmists etc., all with the new mark -but from 1927! I have several presentation boxes, dated 1917 - 1922 by the donation text - but they have the kokoshnik and what is very interesting- the smith´s stamp from Abakumov (1898), Nazarov (1908-17) etc. showing that these boxes where either stolen, confiscated or simple leftovers. The postrevolution years were terror pure!!! You are absolute right when you say the new punch came in 23.6.1927
Regards
Postnikov
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Yes of course, your point is clear, but it still doesn't change the fact that the right looking kokoshnik assaying mark legally existed to 22.6.1927 used or not after 1917. Irrespective of the (political) facts you stated its wrong to use the year 1917. If Postnikova, Ivanov, Troepolskaja etc. are using the year 1926(27) you should not oversee it but use it too.
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Hi Ort.s-
you are very persistant! Of course I know that the Kokoshnik facing right was in use from 1908 until 1926!
When I speak over or about Russian silver I only have silver until the year 1917 in mind. After 1917 it is "Communistic" silver for me - dull, ugly and common - not to compare with the silver in the decades before. Personally I would bet my head that the cigarette box was not made in the years 1917 - 1926! Alone the Bogatyr on the front would have brought you 25 years in a GULAG...
If you have fotos of silver from the years 1917 - 1926 with the Kokoshnik facing right and communistic propaganda optic (otherwise you can not distinguish if it was made before 1917) I would be very happy - I tried in vain to find it since 25 years!
Regards
Postnikov
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you are very persistant! Of course I know that the Kokoshnik facing right was in use from 1908 until 1926!
When I speak over or about Russian silver I only have silver until the year 1917 in mind. After 1917 it is "Communistic" silver for me - dull, ugly and common - not to compare with the silver in the decades before. Personally I would bet my head that the cigarette box was not made in the years 1917 - 1926! Alone the Bogatyr on the front would have brought you 25 years in a GULAG...
If you have fotos of silver from the years 1917 - 1926 with the Kokoshnik facing right and communistic propaganda optic (otherwise you can not distinguish if it was made before 1917) I would be very happy - I tried in vain to find it since 25 years!
Regards
Postnikov
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Evening and peace Postnikov,
Hehehehe, and you're not? I'm just sticking to cool facts otherwise I wouldn't say anything. Nevertheless the case is the cigarette case and I never claimed that it was made after 1917. But I still cannot see what is the cipher, alpha, delta or ? in the assay mark. If its delta your suggested master is a good prospect, but if its alpha, there are possible alternatives. Now it remains to bee seen what the cipher is. I cannot detect which one it is.
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Hehehehe, and you're not? I'm just sticking to cool facts otherwise I wouldn't say anything. Nevertheless the case is the cigarette case and I never claimed that it was made after 1917. But I still cannot see what is the cipher, alpha, delta or ? in the assay mark. If its delta your suggested master is a good prospect, but if its alpha, there are possible alternatives. Now it remains to bee seen what the cipher is. I cannot detect which one it is.
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Guys thank you so much for your help.
unfortunately, my photo camera is an outdated one and the macro function is not missing but cannot do more than seen.
What I could tell you from what my eyes see is that the maker's mark is WB and the kokoshnik mark is from moskow as i see the small triangle next to that face.
also the face is located in the left part of the mark facing right.
If that is something more and could help you giving me more information, it would be very appreciated.
Thank you very much !
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unfortunately, my photo camera is an outdated one and the macro function is not missing but cannot do more than seen.
What I could tell you from what my eyes see is that the maker's mark is WB and the kokoshnik mark is from moskow as i see the small triangle next to that face.
also the face is located in the left part of the mark facing right.
If that is something more and could help you giving me more information, it would be very appreciated.
Thank you very much !
.
No problem,
The "triangle" is the Greek letter delta and the cipher/symbol for Moscow. The maker's mark cannot be be WB because W doesn't exist i the Cyrillic alphabet. The initials are Cyrillic ВФ but upside down in comparison with the assay mark, in Latin letters VF. That means that you already got one potential answer i.e. Viktor Flink, even if his mark doesn't exactly look like the mark on your case, but...?
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The "triangle" is the Greek letter delta and the cipher/symbol for Moscow. The maker's mark cannot be be WB because W doesn't exist i the Cyrillic alphabet. The initials are Cyrillic ВФ but upside down in comparison with the assay mark, in Latin letters VF. That means that you already got one potential answer i.e. Viktor Flink, even if his mark doesn't exactly look like the mark on your case, but...?
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Hello again,
As i looked back again and I searched the russian Cyrillic alphabet I could tell that the letters are either BM or ШB
If it is BM then the two marks are placed one normal and the other one upside down.
If just reading it normal, it looks like ШB and the B would be upside down...
???
what do you think ?
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As i looked back again and I searched the russian Cyrillic alphabet I could tell that the letters are either BM or ШB
If it is BM then the two marks are placed one normal and the other one upside down.
If just reading it normal, it looks like ШB and the B would be upside down...
???
what do you think ?
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Hi -
the maker´s mark is always upside down next to the kokoshnik mark!
That was the procedere (mostly). The sketch of Qrt.s is right on target - there are several forms of the letter "F" in cyr. possible and used. See sketch - what you have is Nr 5.
The Russian poet Fjodor Tjuttichew wrote in the year 1866: you can not understand Russia, you must believe!
Regards
Postnikov
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the maker´s mark is always upside down next to the kokoshnik mark!
That was the procedere (mostly). The sketch of Qrt.s is right on target - there are several forms of the letter "F" in cyr. possible and used. See sketch - what you have is Nr 5.
The Russian poet Fjodor Tjuttichew wrote in the year 1866: you can not understand Russia, you must believe!
Regards
Postnikov
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I made a brief survey and the result was about 50/50. To my understanding the reason was this: The assayer was strictly forbidden to struck his mark if the maker's mark was missing. Every piece had to be brought to the assayer unfinished and in pieces but marked with the maker's mark. Only in such case the assayer was allowed struck his own mark. However, he just struck it where it according to the rules should be struck. Note that there where very strict rules whereto struck the marks on the piece.
Was the assayer's mark upside down or not didn't care the assayer a bit. He didn't have time to investigate what way the maker's mark was, he just struck his mark and next case in...That's the case!
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Was the assayer's mark upside down or not didn't care the assayer a bit. He didn't have time to investigate what way the maker's mark was, he just struck his mark and next case in...That's the case!
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Hi Qrt.s -
First, I really appreciate the "bookwormish ernest" how you approach things!
"What I can not read black on white I do not believe!"
But please realise that knowledge comes from doing thousand times the same thing until the thousand and first time every thing is different. In my experience over 25 years with Russian silver I learn every day something new - not from books - they are rather limited - but from the silver (yes it speaks if you have ears to listen) or from people who try to solve some riddles - with brain, with power of observation, and adding 1 to 1. What I learned is: One person say A, the next person say B, a third person say C - everybody defend his opinion. For me it is no problem if I am wrong - I am very happy if someone points me in the right direction - for me it is important that my riddle is solved or that I am able to participate on others experience.
Back to business:
how many thousand pieces have you quickly surveyed ? Have you ever watched assay masters at work personally? Do you know that to every rule is an exeption - especially in Russia? Do you really know the real reason why in Russia every separate part of a silver item had to be marked in contrary to the rest of the world? Do you know why the assay master mark and the master´s mark are more often than not upside down? Maybe Murphy´s law? Ask your books - no answer. Ask serious collectors or staff in Russian museums - some answers
End of rant, happy opinions
Regards
Postnikov
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First, I really appreciate the "bookwormish ernest" how you approach things!
"What I can not read black on white I do not believe!"
But please realise that knowledge comes from doing thousand times the same thing until the thousand and first time every thing is different. In my experience over 25 years with Russian silver I learn every day something new - not from books - they are rather limited - but from the silver (yes it speaks if you have ears to listen) or from people who try to solve some riddles - with brain, with power of observation, and adding 1 to 1. What I learned is: One person say A, the next person say B, a third person say C - everybody defend his opinion. For me it is no problem if I am wrong - I am very happy if someone points me in the right direction - for me it is important that my riddle is solved or that I am able to participate on others experience.
Back to business:
how many thousand pieces have you quickly surveyed ? Have you ever watched assay masters at work personally? Do you know that to every rule is an exeption - especially in Russia? Do you really know the real reason why in Russia every separate part of a silver item had to be marked in contrary to the rest of the world? Do you know why the assay master mark and the master´s mark are more often than not upside down? Maybe Murphy´s law? Ask your books - no answer. Ask serious collectors or staff in Russian museums - some answers
End of rant, happy opinions
Regards
Postnikov
.
Interesting statemet from you i. e. Once I taught I made a mistake but I was wrong! :-). Meaning that your always right and I'm wrong, Hmmm!
What do you know about me and my knowledge and with whom I've talked to? In another thread I just showed you the way but it seems to me that you refuse to believe it because I happen to say it ??? Strange indeed! Anyway, I don't vaunt with my acchiements
I base my facts and sayings on assay charters, decrees, regulations and that sort of things but not on feelings! I suppose you know very well how strict the regulations were in former Russia and how hard the punishments were when breaking the rules. And still you seem to base matters on what you see and feel i.e feelings. In additions you answer me that you don't know where you got it from and still carry the opinion that this is the answer!? That's not a very scientific approach, you know!
I have the content of the all assay charters and decrees (in both Russia and in English) as form 1700. I know exactly why every separate piece of an item was marked and where and with what mark. What I don't know is why the assay mark in some cases is upside down and a lot of other things. I already told you why I think it probably is.
By the way there are hardly no exceptions except for those stated in the charters due to the punishments.
I'm not always right but not always wrong either. I know what I know and it is just that simple. Thank you for underestimating me. I will not continue this discussion no matter what you might answer.
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What do you know about me and my knowledge and with whom I've talked to? In another thread I just showed you the way but it seems to me that you refuse to believe it because I happen to say it ??? Strange indeed! Anyway, I don't vaunt with my acchiements
I base my facts and sayings on assay charters, decrees, regulations and that sort of things but not on feelings! I suppose you know very well how strict the regulations were in former Russia and how hard the punishments were when breaking the rules. And still you seem to base matters on what you see and feel i.e feelings. In additions you answer me that you don't know where you got it from and still carry the opinion that this is the answer!? That's not a very scientific approach, you know!
I have the content of the all assay charters and decrees (in both Russia and in English) as form 1700. I know exactly why every separate piece of an item was marked and where and with what mark. What I don't know is why the assay mark in some cases is upside down and a lot of other things. I already told you why I think it probably is.
By the way there are hardly no exceptions except for those stated in the charters due to the punishments.
I'm not always right but not always wrong either. I know what I know and it is just that simple. Thank you for underestimating me. I will not continue this discussion no matter what you might answer.
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Gentlemen,
I respect the knowledge that you bring to this forum and would like you both to continue to post here. So play nice - and agree to disagree.
I've noted here and on other forums that when people care a great deal about a subject and are communicating in a secondary language it is often easy to give or take offense. Please take care with what you have to say.
We are here to discuss silver marks - nothing more. This is a subject we all care about, but in the great scheme of the world, nothing to get heated about.
Thank You,
Tom
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I respect the knowledge that you bring to this forum and would like you both to continue to post here. So play nice - and agree to disagree.
I've noted here and on other forums that when people care a great deal about a subject and are communicating in a secondary language it is often easy to give or take offense. Please take care with what you have to say.
We are here to discuss silver marks - nothing more. This is a subject we all care about, but in the great scheme of the world, nothing to get heated about.
Thank You,
Tom
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Hello again and thank you for spending time and helping me out.
It's completely amazing seeing how much time people would spend resolving things, helping others and of course gaining more experience with their hobbies.
And also how much information could someone have! WOW ! again you guys are amazing.
I've been trying to find more info about this Viktor Iwanowitsch Flink but Google doesn't lead me to any close things about this maker.
I appreciate very much your help and hope you could paste or give me a link where to find more details about him.
Thank you thousand times !
.
It's completely amazing seeing how much time people would spend resolving things, helping others and of course gaining more experience with their hobbies.
And also how much information could someone have! WOW ! again you guys are amazing.
I've been trying to find more info about this Viktor Iwanowitsch Flink but Google doesn't lead me to any close things about this maker.
I appreciate very much your help and hope you could paste or give me a link where to find more details about him.
Thank you thousand times !
.