Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
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anne111
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Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by anne111 »

Hello,
I have googled and delved about in here and still coming up with nothing but eyestrain. Can anyone help? This salt is silver, approximately 3.5cms high and a little over 5cms in diameter at the widest point. Having real difficulty with the marks. It looks like 2NNM???1 and P30K Does anyone know where it was made or when? Many thanks, Anne
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silverport
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by silverport »

Gebr. SOMMÉ, Breslau; 830 — SOMMÉ Bros., retailer, Breslau (Wroclaw), 830-1,000.

Hello Anne

Welcome to the Forum.

Yours salt bowl is made from silver of 830-1,000; made in all probability by one of the local manufactories of Breslau (from about spring 1945 on officially called: Wroclaw, Poland).

Probably your salt bowl was made by a local manufactory, e.g. silver manufactory Julius Lemor? Lemor made next to flatware, their speciality, also a broad range of table oriented hollowware.

The style is a kind of a tamed Rococo — that was an attempt, to find with classical style interpretations a way out of the »Art Nouveau« period. So, I guess, yours salt bowl is made short before, or short time after the WWI.

In each case it’s a series model; it’s not individually made in traditional technique by a silversmith workshop.

The bowl was retailed by Gebr. Sommé (Sommé Bros.) — a so called »Verkaufsgeschäft für Gold- und Silberwaren, Uhren und Schmuck« (more simple: Retailer for Jewellery and Silver).

Since centuries it was world wide also usual, that some times not the maker’s mark was dominant, but the retailers mark. Some times the retailer claimed to get only "not marked" items from the producer — but it was also by agreement usual, that wares were already in the factory struck with the retailers mark.

Why in yours case are both marks make difficulties to be read: It’s a combination of silver and glass — maybe be struck (from an apprentice?) in a not separated configuration?

The sign, on the right side of the SOMMÉ name, I assume, is an Sommé internal code for the identification of the supplying factory.

Not in general, but often is a full name the retailers name — not that of the maker. Some factories signed for several reason some times their products also with their full name, like e.g. the above mentioned silver wares factory Julius Lemor, Breslau (1818-1945).

Be happy, it’s a nice piece too.

Kind regards silverport
dragonflywink
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by dragonflywink »

The marks are poorly struck, but It's a fairly common Soviet-era Russian salt, made of silverplated melkhior(melchior), a copper/nickel/zinc alloy, most I've seen date to the 1950s-80s. The mark to the right would indicate the price (Ρ=rubles, Κ=kopeks).

~Cheryl
Qrt.S
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by Qrt.S »

Silverports reply is very interesting indeed but I share dragonfly's opinion:
A common Soviet era piece. It is not in silver but in an alloy called ЮММЕТ (Jummet= Juvelirnij metal serebra) in Russian. The alloy is supposed to contain 20-30% silver and 70-80% nickel or zinc, or? Take a closer look and you can see this ЮММЕТ punched. The price is also punched and it seems to be 1 Ruble 30 Kopeks. I have seen lots of those. they can also be enameled in cloisonne with several different patterns. The price is then 4R 50K, it is a the "luxus" version. Sometimes they include a small spoon in the same outfit.

BUT! Could it be so that its origin is like silverport tells us but later copied by the Soviets?

Rgds
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by dragonflywink »

My mother has been a salt collector since my teen years (well over 30 years now), so I've seen these salts in the American market for a long time. This design, noted as "Russian of recent date", appears in Heacock & Johnson's 5000 Open salts (1982), as do two of the five varieties of the gold or silver plated enameled designs I've seen (leaf & berry, fish scale, floral, dot motif, and one that looks to me like bowling pins & maple seeds); at least two of the enameled designs are still being produced and sold. They are pretty common, can be found in their original, sometimes dated boxes, and they're often found with a floral salt spoon matching this design and bearing its own price, the stamped prices will vary depending on the age. I've seen them marked ЮММΕΤ like this one but have also seen ЮММНЦ, indicating they are the copper/nickel/zinc alloy (Медь/Никель/Цинк), several years ago, a Russian dealer told me they were made by Mstera Jewelers.

~Cheryl
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by silverport »

Well, I’m astonished — but ever could happen all.

Hello all

Sorry Anne, actually you see our open search; a search to find, if possible, a common and reliable sounded clue.

Thank you, »Cheryl« and »Qrt.S«, for yours very interesting, and of course very plausible contributions!

»925-1000« »Search« function is actually very sick; until yet I couldn’t find back a contribution from about a half year ago, on Gebr. Sommé — if I remember correct, there were shown a »SOMMÉ« retailers mark too.

As already mentioned, the »Search function« doesn’t function from out the South West corner of Continental Europe. But directly after my contribution I’ve found, by »Search function« my minute before posted contribution. Question: Computer with »Alzheimer« too?

I’m well an old man — but instead of disagree, in reality I should maybe praise the dysfunction?! Because it’s an useful »brain jogging« contra »Alzheimer«?!

Seen, that after the WWII Germans was expulsed out of that area of Breslau, and of course out of other Eastern area too, some Million human leaving back almost all of their belongings. So I hadn’t any doubts on the actual, a little bit “old looking”, or a little bit desolate condition of this salt in question.

Thank you Cheryl for yours remark — and possible correction. It would be sure, that we would see to find a solution.

As all experienced collectors know, often we could in our imagination "add" by knowledge, missing parts of a punch. We could in such »reconstructed« punches sound our clues; for example, please look here: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21627" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; And then after, we make them public for discussion; similar as we practice just now.

Some weeks ago I’ve got the monographic book on »Julius Lemor« and the catalogue on Silesian silver wares *. It’s imaginable, that Provinces settled profession has made so many pattern of hollowware, that by incidence only, one of these could be published in these two excerpts.

The style of this salt seems to have had in the past such a kind of acceptability — that it is also imaginable, to make now reproductions in e.g. Galvanic plastic technique.

By my experience of knowing possible deformations or destructions, which could happen during the strike of punches, here I had the impression, without very sounded doubts, that these were »SOMMÉ« punches. Sorry.

Yes of course, Cheryl’s remarks, especially related on e.g. the »price« area, and by you, »Qrt.S«, detailed explanations of these two punch area, and their punches, let me hope, that Anne could find locally an expert, to find out the real metal.

Never before I’ve seen this kind of salts in reproduction — so Cheryl’s and »Qrt.S« arguments and explanations of punches are now at least in pole position — and it seems to me, that they would be the correct winner in this case.

Anne, please look out to find a person which has experience in precious and surrogate metals, that he or she have a critical look on the metal part of this item. Please, let’s know the result — also if it need weeks or month’.

Cheryl stated once in the past, similar to »ValkyrieVixen«, to look also on the attractively of an item — not first only ongram fine metal”.

Anne, if this salt attracts you and you could accept, to have a version made from not precious metal; sorry, then that would for all of us a necessary lesson too.

Thank you Anne!

* Please look here for more details; http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 42&t=20180" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards silverport
anne111
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by anne111 »

Hello All,

Huge thanks for all your efforts on this. An update: I have had the item tested and it seems not to be plate but silver of around 800 - 850. The value isn't important to me - I like it in and of itself and it is always the reason I buy.

The most important thing to me is to find out where it was made and when and if possible, by whom. I have some experience of silver items from outside the UK and all I can add is that this screams Russian to me but I'm getting old and my hearing might be going! :)

Does the fact that this is silver, albeit not to the 925 standard advance any theories.

Thanks again for your thoughts and expertise.

Anne
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by Qrt.S »

Anne, Anne, please cut the admin edit . Your object is not silver it's plated believe me. You see, you have fallen into a very well known trap. When you test a plated item for silver you have to scratch very deep to reach the base material. That will damage the object. When and if you only make a light scratch, of course the test result shows silver because you're only scratching the surface which is pure silver. Take it for granted, but once again your piece is not silver because it's undoubtedly plated! It is completely unnecessary to discuss that.

Nevertheless here are some pictures of my objects with spoons. They are plated too!
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by dragonflywink »

Hi Anne,

I'll be a bit more gentle, but as said, whoever did your testing was quite simply wrong. I have seen situations where plated items were marked as silver for the secondary market, either after being tested incorrectly or as fraudulent deceptions - but your piece, even with the poor strikes is clearly marked as non-silver and there would be no reason to mark a silver item of any fineness in this manner. They are common and can be easily found on the internet (sometimes misidentified), they are without question Russian, and if they were made of silver, would be marked as such. If you still feel that yours is mismarked and is indeed silver, you might remove the liner and take it to a jeweler or coin dealer who can do a non-destructive and much more reliable specific-gravity test. Regardless, they have a certain charm and you should enjoy yours.

~Cheryl
2209patrick
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by 2209patrick »

Hello everyone.

Yes, that is a Russian silverplate mark. Trust us.
In attached photo is your picture and another picture of a Russian siilverplate mark.

Pat.
silverport
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by silverport »

Some pictures "tell more" - then words.

Hello Pat.

Thank you for your photo!

Kind regards silverport

P.S. But I'm still busy to find the old missing link in »925-1000« on »SOMMÉ«.
anne111
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by anne111 »

I watched the test. The glass liner was removed and this guy dug out a section with a scalpel. He then used some kind of acid and timed how long to wait before wiping it off and checking on a colour chart. He said he was testing what was under what was visable.

If you guys say it's plate, then it's plate. Is it okay if I still like it?

Thanks for your guidance.

Anne
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by Qrt.S »

I kind of a problem might be that nobody seems to know exactly what is the content of this Jummet-alloy. There are only rumors circulating. Cheryl has heard that it is copper/nickel/zink while I have heard that it might be 20%silver and 80% nickel. I have also heard that it is plated with silver but I have never seen anything written about it, has anybody? Unfortunately objects with "Jummet"-marks" are sometimes sold as silver. I saw it last time yesterday.

In case jummet contains silver (~20%), the acid test might fool you (just a guess). Anyway, 20% is so low silver quality that it is not allowed to call it silver.

Actually these "salt pots" where popular tourist souvenirs in the former Soviet. I have seen lots of them for sale in tourist shops in Leningrad/St: Petersburg during my several visits there.
The main thing is still that also in Soviet there were strict rules for marking silver. As mentioned earlier, there are no silver marks here.
anne111
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by anne111 »

I think that about ends any need for further discussion on this. I have what I wanted to know: it's Russian plate, not very old, end of story. I've learned a lot - more though about people than silver.

I'll be on my way and thanks for your thoughts.

Anne
anne111
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by anne111 »

Qrt.S wrote:Anne, Anne, please cut the admin edit . Your object is not silver it's plated believe me. You see, you have fallen into a very well known trap. When you test a plated item for silver you have to scratch very deep to reach the base material. That will damage the object. When and if you only make a light scratch, of course the test result shows silver because you're only scratching the surface which is pure silver. Take it for granted, but once again your piece is not silver because it's undoubtedly plated! It is completely unnecessary to discuss that.

Nevertheless here are some pictures of my objects with spoons. They are plated too!
I have no idea what you mean by cutting the admin edit. If I did something wrong, my apologies. All I wanted to do was find a little information.

Anne
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by dognose »

Hi Anne,

Welcome to the Forum.

No, you've done nothing wrong. I hope you continue to bring any finds you acquire to the Forum for discussion.

Regards Trev.
Qrt.S
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Re: Salt - Unknown Marks - Help appreciated

Post by Qrt.S »

No problem and no need for apologies. The thing is that sometimes when you think you bought silver and gladly present it here for further information, it turns out not to be silver and even if it verified by others too you still refuse to believe it . That feels like a slap in your face. Forget the "admin edit" matter, it was my fault, sorry about that.

Have a nice evening

Qrt.S
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