Need help to ID French spoon, VEEC ? 3 marks total on spoon

[mikestoyshop]

I am hoping to get a silver spoon identified as to maker, year, or anything at all really. I have found very little on the web thus far.
I believe it is Sterling silver or higher in content. (.950-1000?)

It has 3 distinct marks that I have tried to photograph as closeup as i could. The marks are very tiny.
There are two marks on the front bowl portion of the spoon, near to wear the bowl attaches to the handle.
One mark looks like the letters V E E C to me. There looks to be an animal in the center of the letters. Animal looks like a horse or deer.
I have included a collage of two of the marks that are on the front side of the spoon.

The 3rd marking is on the back of the bowl portion. I have that image photographed along with many more closeups on a website if anyone wishes to help identify this spoon. The 3 marking looks like an insect , a grasshopper possibly to me.

This spoon is part of a larger set of flatware. 12 spoons and forks came in an older style box.
Box is made of wood that is covered in a leather looking material outside, and a padded silk material inside.
Lettering on the inside of the box is in an older script font that reads "Strasbourg"

I have posted numerous photos and some more description of the markings as to what they look like to me. The photos are online at http://mikestoyshop.com/silver.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





Thank you,
Kim

[2209patrick]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Believe the top Ve stands for Veuve or widow.

Short of time right now, but the scan below should help you.



Pat.

[2209patrick]

Your Minerva's head mark indicates a fineness of .950.
http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_marks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check here for her husband's mark:
http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_makers_E.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pat.

[mikestoyshop]

Hello again,
Thanks for the two very helpful posts. Does anyone have an idea of what the third mark is on the spoon? It looks like an insect of some sort to me.

http://mikestoyshop.com/images/silver/C ... fSpoom.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://mikestoyshop.com/images/silver/backofspoon.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[joris]

This is the "bigorne" mark, made on a sort of engraved anvil. Usually these insect markings are on the opposite side from the maker's mark or other hallmark. If you can locate a copy of Tardy, you can see the details on pages 212-217 of the English-language edition.

[mikestoyshop]

I found something more about the VEEC maker mark here

http://www.silvercollection.it/frenchsilversmithsV.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The name I located is "Compère, Léontine (veuve) Ernest Compere " . I translated it on Babelfish and it means "Compère, Léontine (veuve) Ernest Compere" I guess ths means Leontine Compere is the widow of Ernest Compere. This would make the dates on the spoons sometime after 1888? Am I on the right track?

[silverport]

The »bigorne« markings are never on the opposite of any maker's mark!

Hello Joris

Never, really never you would find on French assayed items on the opposite of the maker's mark any marking of a »bigorne« anvil.

Maker's marks are struck by the maker!

Assay marks are struck by the Assayer!

The »bigorne« markings were introduced, to become control that the Assay and/or Tax marks were struck on a regular basis.

Reason was, to prevent frauds - because crooks had official Assay marks from cheap items reused = these cut out and soldered on other items of higher value.

But if you solder ON a piece, then the so called »contremarque« is 'inside' of the solder - if there were also crooks who used two cheap items, for both surfaces I don't know.

Well there were in 'ancient' time some exceptions = agreements between Silversmith’s, or their Associations, or Towns and the main Assay Office of that respective area, when the risk of transport for reason of long distances wasn't acceptable; a kind of tax subscription.

Kind regards silverport

[mikestoyshop]

What I have are about 48 pieces total. 12 of each: lg spoons, sm. spoons, lg. forks, and sm. forks.

On each one of them the marks are as follows. On the "top most side" of the utensil. You will see the Minerva mark on one section, and the VEEC mark on the opposite section of where the eating portion of the item meets the handle. You can see what I'm talking about here.
http://mikestoyshop.com/images/silver/p ... cMarks.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On the bottom side of each utensil you will find the bigorne marking

http://mikestoyshop.com/images/silver/p ... arking.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kim

[silverport]

Time span between production and assay could be 1 day, 1 week, 1 month, 1 year or more.

Hello Kim

Yours résumé from Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:06 am is correct! The widow’s mark of Léontine Compère, widow of Ernest Compère’s rabbit mark was registered on the 12 respective 23 October 1888, and was ceased on 3 October 1919.

The husband of Léontine Compère, Ernest Compère has died on 9 October 1888.

If the punch »Ve. (running rabbit) EC« wasn’t made in advance, the punch engraver has needed a while, to make at least one of all the new punches — please hold in mind that then it was maybe already a little manufactory; with need on more then only one maker’s mark punch.

That could maybe the reason for the given second date: 23 October 1888. Then the mark has got the register number: B201.

The signification of that is:

Yours cutlery was maybe already made during Ernest Compère’s productivity? But Assay Office marked on or after the 23 October 1888.

Or yours cutlery was made later, during Léontine Compère’s productivity periodic — and Assay Office marked on or after the 23 October 1888 until 3 October 1919. Yours cutlery could also being around 30 years younger as well.

As already »2209patrick« has mentioned: Yours fineness mark is »Premiér Titre«, with the numeral 1 in front of the forehead of »Minerva«, and in a square cartouche with clipped edges = 950-1,000.

The »contremarque« of the Assay Office is always only on the opposite of the fineness mark, on the backside of the material — that’s never struck by the maker; but struck only in the Assay Offices of France.

The uses of »bigornes« were published by a decree on 30 June 1835; they came in function on 9 May 1838, and the actual versions are the usual ones from December 1846 on.

An important characteristic of the »contremarque« is, the insects (in yours picture you show an »Fourmi« = ant) are different:

Side view of an insect = struck in Paris Assay Office

Top view of an insect = struck in one of the other »Departments« (province) Assay Offices

These differences being remember that helps a lot by the search, where the item was made.

Well there were very different »bigornes« in use by the Assay Office employee — always used in relation of the objects dimensions and forms.

There were big ones, with 16 different insects, medium sized ones with 13 different insects, and little flat ones with 21 different insects — and round (horn) ones with 17 different insects.

In yours case it seems to me, that yours cutlery is struck on a little flat one, on the row »9« = »Fourmi«. The neighbour »8« = »Capricorne«, and neighbour »10« = »Anthis«.

The Assay Office administration has also worked out a catalogue of “rules”, where the items always have to be marked from 1838 on: Forks on front side, between stem and tines; Spoons in the bowls front side, near the stem. The maker's mark has to be struck by the maker themselves always before, on the opposite of the same surface left side where the assay mark would be struck.

So yours observation confirm the conformity: » On each one of them the marks are as follows. On the "top most side" of the utensil. You will see the Minerva mark on one section, and the VEEC mark on the opposite section of where the eating portion of the item meets the handle. «

Well for reason of this long lasting continuity in the French Assay System, French assayed items could only being dated by combination of the history of maker’s marks in their changes, like here. But by the long lasting continuity of style of French items it’s often difficult to date an object too. Some times could help additional engravings of date — which could end too in a guess only.

By time and while you would get more experience and knowledge — Good luck!

Kind regards silverport

[mikestoyshop]

Hello,
Wow!! Thank you very much for all this great information. Very much appreciated.
Kim