When is it OK for Assayer mark to be missing?

[Jag]

I am trying to learn by reading posts, and have noticed that authentic russian silver sometimes has an assayer mark, but not always. For example in gena's spoon threads, here is one with an assayer mark (http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=29698), and here is one with no assayer mark (http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=29707" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). But it looks like it OK for one spoon to have the mark, and another spoon to not have the mark - both are authentic, yes?

Was the assayer mark not always stamped on silver? When is it OK for it to not be stamped?

[Qrt.S]

First of all the assayer's mark is not missing from the object you refer to. It is the mark to the right. This with 84 and the town mark. It was used ~1882-1899. It is called "dvoinik" double". Secondly, note that the shape of the respective mark varies through the years. The mark in your other link (AM) is an older assaying mark. Thirdly, according to the Russian law must a Russian made object always carry the assayer's mark and the maker's mark in case it was meant to be put on the market.
There are, however, some rare, really RARE exceptions. They are privately ordered objects or gifts that were never officially sold on the market and objects made to the czar and/or his family members and of course illegal or spurious objects. These objects are anyway marked with the maker's mark, illegal items excluded. They can have whatever marks.
For the moment I cannot recall anything else with a missing assayer's mark. In order to clarify the situation for yourself you should read books and find out what kind of assaying marks were used in Russia and when.
If you today manage to find a Russian made object without an assaying mark, consider it spurious with 99, 99999% certainty irrespective of what the seller might claim like "I found in the "attic of my late great grandmother's house whom came from Russia..."etc. etc..similar nonsense.

[Jag]

Thank you for your answer.

I'm in the US and have collected a fair amount of silve, but I hardly ever see any Russian silver. I do not currently own any Russian silver books, and my local library did not have any. But now I've gone against my better judgement and entered this den of iniquity known as the Russian forum. So I guess you are right - it is not safe here without at least one book to protect me, so I found and ordered the book by Gilodo. It should arrive in a week or so. Hopefully the book is a good one - I saw it quoted in a thread here so I guess it can't be THAT bad. (Please insert smiley faces wherever needed - this actually seems to be the most fun forum on the site).

While I'm waiting can I ask a follow-up question? You said that the dvoinik mark, which is the 84 and town mark only, was used as an assayer mark from about 1882 to 1899. Can you see my confusion, since the 84 and town mark were also required prior to this time, but ALSO needed the assayer mark (with his initials and the year)? So it looks like they just eliminated the need for the initial/date assayer mark?

And this is even stranger - that some pieces were apparently still being marked in the 1882 to 1899 time with the assayer mark! Note the sample assayer marks on this page: http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_assay_01.html. There are examples of marks for almost all years from 1883 to 1896. So if the initial/date assayer mark was SOMETIMES still being used from 1882 to 1800, then why wasn't it ALWAYS being used?

[Zolotnik]

Hi Jag -

what makes collecting so interesting is that for every rule is an exeption! Some details for your example: the shown spoon is from Warzaw/Poland - at that time under Russian rule. Before ca. 1882 an assayer was a must, between ca. 1882 and 1899 an eagle as townmark for Warzaw and the silver content (84 Zolotniki) were enough. Later the Kokoshnik with the Greek letter Jota as town mark followed. It is a combination of Russian and Polish silver marking - a little bit confusing for the "Russian only" collectors - but Russia was/is big and consists of many non- Russian countries....with a mix of rules and laws. It took some decades to synchronice the assaying.



Sometimes it is very important to know not only the marks/laws but also the history...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes, what Zolotnik added are essential facts. However, I cannot know based or your first post how much you know about Russian hallmarking. What you didn't ask was that was the mentioned hallmark the only one used at that time. No, it was not. In addition to this hallmark the assay office used a similar hallmark in an oval frame and another mark, a so called "troinik" or triple in English. A hallmark of three separate marks combined to one "poincon". Please see pictures below. Please also note that a very similar mark (triple) was used before 1882, This mark seems to be one "poincon" but it isn't. It is three separate marks punched beside each other. The notches on the 84 is a separating factor as well as the years. The older mark has no notches. There were more assaying marks used, but everything cannot be told here. It would be a whole novel. This is a loooong story!

Moreover, the site you refer to needs updating. Unfortunately it contains outdated and partly misleading information (sorry for that admin., but it is the truth.) As an example: marks with the assayer's initials and year later than 1882 are removed from the rest of the troinik. This gives you an incorrect picture of the troinik's real outlook. There is, however, again one exception. Look at this picture:


I hope the book you ordered is the "Russian bible" Postnikova-Loseva-Ivanova's book. If not kindly tell me what book you bought. Nonetheless, before you start collect Imperial Russian silver, do investigate and read especially this site! It contains a lot of vital information.
By the way, iIn USA there are more fakes than genuine objects for sale and especially enameled ones.---be careful!

[Jag]

Ouch, my head hurts! This is clearly a very complex subject, with lots of variations and exceptions.

Thank you both for your very informative replies. Before reading the posts on this forum I knew exactly nothing about Russian hallmarking. Now I know as much as I have learned from the hallmark pages on this site, plus the posts here and on the ASCA site. Thanks to the answers you and Zolotnik have given, this is making much more sense to me than it did before. I think the two of you should combine to write that novel. You can ask Dad to be editor. Just don't bring any weapons to your meetings (spoons, forks and cigarette cases only - no knives).

Not only is there very little authentic Russian silver here in the US, there are also very few books about Russian silver written in English. The book I ordered is by Gilodo - "Russian Silver: Mid 19th Century-Beginning of the 20th Century / Russkoe Serebro: Vtoraia Polovina 19-Nachalo 20 Veka". Was that a waste of money? Is the book by Paulson better?

[Qrt.S]

Yes Russian hallmarking is complex but not an absolute science, you can learn if you want to but it eats time. And another "yes", there are rather few books in English and in general in other languages too. Take my advice, don't buy Paulson but the book I suggested. Paulsson is hardly a shadow of Postnikova. It is in Russian but you can cope with it if you learn the Cyrillic alphabet, it is not that difficult. There are no better books on the market.

Sorry but I'm not familiar with the book you mentioned.

[Aguest]

Yes beware of the enameled objects with fake hallmarks of Russian master silversmiths that were overstamped upon the original russian assay marks.

This one is a mystery, why would someone create an Imperial Russian style spoon and simply mark it "925" in two places?