Assist indentifying spanish chandelier

[mikelugg]

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[/code][/img][/img]Hallo,
who can assist in indentifying this possibly spanish 5 flame chandelier.
It is made of Sterling Silver and fire gold plated, wheighs 3,5 kg has got a spanish? town stamp,
aswell as Streling punches under the drip trays and on the top part inside where the two parts are joined.
There is an engraving of the maker, only parts are readable. ALEX, and MAN other letters are there but not to be distinguished.
Who knows the maker and the approximate year of manufacture.
Any assistance is really appreciated.

[dognose]

Hi,

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Trev.

[mikelugg]

[AG2012]

What about Malta? Who else would have stamped it ``sterling`` in continental Europe? And the cross, which is not exactly Maltese cross, though.
Another possibility is Greece but there is letter L in Latin, not Λ lambda, but who can tell for sure what they did. Even if well enlarged the name cannot be read. Try deciphering it, letter by letter. Btw. the master did not use a punch but embossing chisel.
An arm embowed grasping an arrow is a common element in British heraldry; it more often appears on crests than as a charge on shields. Another fact supporting Malta.

[mikelugg]

Hallo AG2012,
thank you for your reply.
Good idea indeed, with the Malteese cross.
What puzzles me is the chiseled Makers sign.
Did you see this before?
It is new to me, although I saw pictures of such marks before.
If you come across anything else plese write again.

[AG2012]

The maker`s mark picture is taken a bit sideways. Could you possibly take and post another one, so we can try to decipher every letter? That might help.
Regards

[dognose]

Hi,

A friend has suggested to me the likelihood that this is a Spanish piece from the town of Daroca in Zaragoza, Aragon, dating from the 18th century.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daroca



During the early 19th century much ecclesiastical silver was sold off to the public and in time as it passed through the antique market it has gained the additional 'sterling' marks.

As for the crest, this may have its origins in the days of the Knights, fighting against the Islamic occupation of the Iberian peninsula.

Trev.

[Funkel]

Es cierto que esas marcas se le han atribuido a la ciudad de Daroca pero son muy pocas piezas las que llevan esa marca, quizás dos o tres y existe alguna duda. De todas formas si damos por sentado que esas marcas que presenta Dognose son de la ciudad de Daroca siempre sería con tres letras DAR y en la marca que nos manda Mikelugg solo lleva dos.
Por otro lado en España nunca se utilizó la palabra STERLING para designar la plata de ley, como tampoco corresponde la marca enmarcada en un círculo a la tipología de marcaje español. En mi opinión no son marcas españolas
Aquí podeís ver un estudio de la evolución de la marca de Daroca y no aparece la de la cruz.
Saludos

It is true that these brands have been attributed to the city of Daroca but very few parts that carry that brand, maybe two or three and there is some doubt. Anyway if we assume that those marks are presented Dognose Daroca city would always be with three letters DAR and the brand that commands us Mikelugg only has two.
On the other hand in Spain never used the word to designate STERLING sterling silver, nor bears the mark in a circle marking the typology of Spanish. In my opinion there are Spanish brands
Here podeís see a study of the evolution Daroca brand appears not cross.
regards

http://www.daroca.info/Programas/1981/1981.htm

Fijaros en otro detalle, el estilo de las piezas de esta página web, nada que ver con la del candelabro con piezas fundidas, verdad?

Pay attention to other details, the style of the pieces on this site, nothing to do with the candlestick with castings, right?

[AG2012]

Are ``sterling`` and circular maker’s mark stamped on the branches? If so, most probably branches do not belong to the base. Closer examination of both parts would help to determine matching motifs and craftsmanship.

[dognose]

Hi Funkel,

On the other hand in Spain never used the word to designate STERLING sterling silver

When I said passed through the antique market, I was referring internationally.

Trev.

[Funkel]

Perdona Dognose, no quería referirme a tu comentario que tiene todo mi respeto sino a mi opinión sobre las tres marcas del candelabro.

AG2012 tienes mucha razón al decir que los brazos pueden ser de otra pieza distinta. Voy a revisar mi documentación pensando que se trata de la marca personal de un platero. El apellido Cruz existe en España y se de algunos plateros que emplearon el signo de la cruz para designar su nombre.

En vuestra opinión que letras son las marcadas después de la + ?

Y por ultimo una pregunta para Mikelugg, estas seguro que el pie es de plata de ley? Lo digo por dos motivos, el primero porque me parece una pieza fundida y debe pesar mucho y eso no es muy normal que se haga con plata de ley y la otra es el color demasiado dorado, no? aunque puede ser por la foto. Espero tu respuesta.

Saludos

Google translation:
Dognose Sorry, did not want to refer to your comment that has my respect but my opinion on the three brands of the candlestick.

AG2012're quite right in saying that the arms can be another different piece. I'll check my paperwork thinking that it is the personal brand of a silversmith. The surname Cruz exists in Spain and some silversmiths who used the sign of the cross to designate his name.

In your opinion which are the marked letters after the +?

And finally a question for Mikelugg, are you sure that the foot is sterling silver? I say this for two reasons, the first because I think a casting and will weigh much and that's not very normal that is made with sterling silver and the other is too brown color, no? although it may be in the photo. I await your response.

Regards

[mikelugg]

Hallo,
thank you Dognose and Funkel for your investigative work.
After some evaluation of the various inputs and futher looking at the chandelier I came to some conclusions.
The Top part is definately not belonging to the bottom. The craftmanship including the style of ornaments and motifs, and the color of the gold plating is very much different on the two parts. The Top part is too small for the bottom part. What has also confirmed my opinion was what dognose said about ecclestical silvers has been sold of to the public, and possibly has been worked on by silversmiths according to the `New owners` wishes.
The Alex... Name chiseld into Top and bottom parts could just have been that silversmith who maybe also made the coat of arms engraving. Only the Top part has Sterling punched into it. The bottom part is deffinately silver of high content. Similar to the Top part, deffinately better than 800, as a couple of people have tested it with Potassiumdichromate Solution and found it to be( must be 925).
My question to dognose would be if your friend would be able to give further information about this sale of church silver to the public.
Thank you Funkel for your input and ideas. It is very high content silver and it is gold plated as it is apparently customary for church chandeliers of this kind.
I hope more can be found out now, as I am confident that is indeed spanish silver because of the + and the DR letters are just too similar to that depicting Daroca.
Even though it is only 2 letters and not mor as you suggest.
These stamnps have been changed every few years as another friend of mine has pointed out to me which he found on this site.http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... CC9zeMp2yw
Hope to hear your opinion on my ideas.

Mike

[AG2012]

Can we see better pictures of maker`s circular mark? If more letters were deciphered we could probably figure out the country.Was it common in the past to spell Spanish name Alejandro with x? I doubt it.

[Funkel]

Hola Mike.
Revise toda la Enciclopedia de la Plata Española y no hay ningún platero con marca parecida, solo he encontrado algo similar en la ciudad de Vic (Cataluña).
I revised the Spanish Silver Encyclopedia and there are no silversmiths with a similar brand, I only found something that was alike in the city of Vic (Catalonia).



Tienes que tener en cuenta que tanto esta marca, como la que presento Dognose, son del XVI, tendrás que valorar si tu candelabro es de esa fecha.
Además todas las marcas españolas con letras góticas aparecen en los siglos XV, XVI y XVII
You need to keep in mind that this brand, as well as the brand that was presented by Dognose, are from XVI, you´ll have to assess whether your candelabra is from that era.
Also all of the Spanish brands that have gothic lettering appear in the XV, XVI and XVII centuries

Te he hecho una copia de lo que nosotros, (los españoles), llamamos "baldones" o "candelabros de altar", de un catálogo de principios del XX. Fíjate en los brazos que son pequeños como los tuyos.
I have made you a copy of what we, ( the spanish), call ¨baldones¨ or ¨alter candelabra¨, from a catalogue from the early XX. Look at the arms which are small like yours.




He iniciado una pequeña investigación sobre el escudo, ya que no me parecía español y he encontrado esto:
I have started a small investigation on the shield, since it didnt seem Spanish and have found this:


http://armorial.library.utoronto.ca/stamps/COL004_s2

Creo que es una buena base para que continúes investigando.
I believe that this is a good base or start for you to keep investigating.

Un saludo y suerte
Regards and good luck