Fratelli Cacchione ivory top box,what age?

[gsmoggy]

Hi Members
This is my recent box,I felt it was very unusual and very nice quality,It may have been made in Florence before the company moved to Milan in 1933.
As they started in 1889,it seems the box is between 1889-1933,when the other lozenge mark was introduced.

Also I am not sure if the ivory top was done in Italy? or ordered and made in France ,and then put into the box in Italy?

I would be interested if anyone has seen similar boxes? not sure what the number 35 refers to?









Any comments would be appreciated.
Regards Guido.

[AG2012]

Hi,
The use of Italian state control marks has been discussed here; in short, it was not obligatory, meaning absence of official national marks (fasces, lozenge or lozenge with star) does not prove anything in regard of dating.
Numbers 3 and 5 are maker`s internal reference, inventory numbers of some kind and irrelevant.
Italians are excellent carvers of many hard materials used in jewelry, ivory included, so, I think there was no need for import, although one can never tell for sure what traders do.
The back of the box is engine turned on rose lathe.
All said, I think your box was made in early 20th century, but also possibly shortly after WWII, in early fifties, not later than that.
Regards

[gsmoggy]

Hi Ag
Again thanks for your reply and comments,even though you say the state control mark was not obligatory,I felt it may sway it towards the box being earlier than later (I may be wrong ) It seems strange accessing marks ,When a mark is there or not there we make all sorts of assumptions ,
In my opinion the control mark not being there ,it may be pre control mark (1933) What was the reason they would not have put the control mark there?
In my opinion the ivory top gives it a feel of being earlier than later.

I have attached images of another small ivory box that I have ,feel it may be French early 1800s ,with similar carving (probably finer)

you may be correct it may have been carved in Italy.

Regards Guido.





Regards Guido

[AG2012]

What was the reason they would not have put the control mark there?

When I contacted another famous maker in Milan (Buccellati) in regard of the same mark on a box (800 in an oval, like yours, but no official mark) with engraved signature of Mario Buccellati,Made in Italy, the answer was
``my grandfather forgot to punch the mark``.
(The box was made in early fifties).
Tells volumes about legislation. Compare with illegal trade of banned ivory throughout EU (legal loophole of ``antique`` ivory allowed for items made the day before yesterday).
Regards

[amena]

Well, there are rules and there are exceptions.
The law of February 5, 1934 says so
Any object containing platinum, gold and silver cannot be offered for sale to the public if it does not bear the manufacturer's mark applied with the punch delivered by the assay office to the person concerned, and followed by an indication of one of the purities in thousandths. indicated in art. 2 for gold and silver, ......

a) whoever produces or sells objects of gold, silver, platinum without the marks, provided for by this law, or with marks that do not correspond to the punch registered at the provincial office of the assay of precious metals, is punished with a fine .........
The implementing regulation of the law is published In the official gazette of 25/3/1935and the punches are delivered to Cacchione on 22/5/1935
As Gsmoggy says
What was the reason they would not have put the control mark there?
Once the annual fee is paid, there is nothing else to pay.
The most likely thing is that Mr. Cacchione was not yet in possession of his punch and therefore that the box was made before 1935 (but not so much earlier, since 800 is inside the oval).
Obviously it is possible instead that the box is after 1935 and that Mr. Cacchione forgot to put his personal mark on it, but that would be an exception, less likely.
Best
Amena

[gsmoggy]

Hello Amena
Many thanks for your reply and comments, I was hoping you may see the post,as you are my Italian Guru of silver it is great to hear from you.
I do understand Ag's point about forgetting to put the mark on, By the way it is 900,not 800 (small point)

For me in the early stages of trying to discover the age, all these type of issues need to be looked into.
They are supposed to still be in business ,Oscar Cacchione now the owner,I would be interested to know Amena if it would be possible to get in contact with him? he would then be able to answer all my questions about it. (have tried ,very difficult from Australia)
Amena have you seen many ivory top boxes like this before?

It would also be interesting to find out where and who did the ivory carving (in Italy or France)?

Also may I ask what marks did they use on their earlier pieces? (first marks)

Regards Guido

[amena]

900 0 800 is NOT a "small point" at all.
The fineness 900 was used in the early years of the twentieth century, but not after 1935. The law provided for only 2 finenesses: 800/000 and 925/000.
To me it seems to see 800 inside the oval but I could be wrong.
I have seen several snuff boxes with ivory tops, sometimes plain and sometimes carved, but I can't tell if they were made in France or Italy.
I found this e-mail address on the internet
info@cacchione.com
but I have no idea if it's still valid.
Regards
Amena

[gsmoggy]

Hello Amena
Many thanks for your comments and assistance with email link.

I have attached another image of the 900 mark.
Do you know what their first earlier marks were? (if different to my mark)

appreciate your help.

Regards Guido.

[gsmoggy]

Hello Amena
looks like link not valid anymore,unfortunately .
Many thanks, anyway.

Regards Guido.

[amena]

I'm sorry but I have no news about Cacchione's early marks.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Amena
Many thanks
may this mean that this was his only mark,I would have thought if there were other marks,they should be somewhere to be seem.

Again many thanks for your help.

Regards Guido.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Members
I have received some information from Giorgo Busetto (silver collections,probably know to most members)
He feels my box is pre 1935.
I have added images of his comments and information he supplied.
Seems very difficult to get info on this company ,looks like the mark on my box was their only mark.

Regards Guido.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Members

I have come across this similar box to mine ,for sale , The owner is saying it is French or Austria, 1860. I have contacted them to give them my opinion that it is Italian and made around probably the date of my box pre 1934. and said I would try and find maker.

I would be interested if the mark on this box is know by members, if the maker of this one is discovered may help date my box,this one is 800 not 900 standard. Nice quality box may be slightly better quality than mine.

mark a bit rubbed.

Regards Guido.