Nicholls & Plincke snuff box

[rshroom]

We know this to date to between 1865-1880. The city mark lacks any definition, but by the outline I assume it to be St. Petersburg. Does gold in general have less definition? Being gold it is thin and perhaps they weren't able to make deep imprints.

Maker's mark is CE (I presume this does not signify EU reg conformity :P )

Assay Mark only appears on bottom half of the piece and strangely is upside down, appears to be AM.

Sold (and manufactured?) by Nicholls & Plincke, St. Petersburg.

It was a gift to a foreign ambassador to Russia (who's monogram is etched on the lid).

I can't find any information on maker CE and am unsure about my assumption regarding the city mark. Assay mark I take to be that of Aleksandr Nikolayevich Mitin, which also fits with the known date range for the piece. There also appears to have been an attempt at a stamp below the assay mark, which I assume may have been the year?

Any thoughts on this would be very much appreciated.

[rshroom]

A couple of clearer pictures of the hallmarks.

[Qrt.S]

HI

What if you take a look here: https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html and then revert to the case. I would be interested if you told us where from you have the information that this box would be Russian made?

[AG2012]

Hi,
There was Carl Ernst (CE), a goldsmith In St Petersburg who had a workshop 1849 and active in 1850s.
The mark was listed under number 1522 in Postnikova Loseva book.
Marks are really badly struck, almost beyond recognition.
Association with N.Plinke and ambassador`s initials are too arbitrary and unsupported to be taken seriously; the story even casts shadow on the attribution.
Marks on Russian gold are always well struck. Badly applied marks are always suspicious of fakes to make an item more lucrative, although gold snuffbox is valuable by itself, but `` N.Plinke and ambassador `` story makes it definitively more attractive.
Regards

[rshroom]

Thank you for the responses. It actually comes with the original Nicholls and Plincke box, which is a perfect fit. See photo below.

The ambassador was my great-great-grandfather, with lots of family papers of his time as both a foreign minister and ambassador in Russia. We don't intend to sell, but are confident of the provenance. He had ties to tsar Alexander II, though we have nothing to suggest this was a gift from the tsar himself. Although I believe at the time Nicholls and Plincke did serve as an official jeweller of the tsar.

The 1865-1880 was a guess based on his time in Russia, though he was already on the international stage as a diplomat long before that, so it i perfectly possible this is older.

[AG2012]

This is from Skurlov blog (silversmiths and goldsmiths in St Petersburg).
(With the address and referring to the same mark).

ЭРНСТ Карл, 1800: ЗДМ в СПб, имел мастерскую в 1849 г., известен до 1850 — х гг. 1849: ЗДМ, Невский пр., д. Сутгофа. Постникова—Лосева: клеймо № 1522.

ERNST Karl, 1800: in St. Petersburg, had a workshop in 1849, known until the 1850s. 1849: Nevsky prospect, Sutgof house. Postnikova-Loseva: mark number 1522
Now that you have all the papers proving the provenance, everything is clear; N.Plincke was a retailer and the maker is Carl Ernst or Ernest.
Regards

[rshroom]

Very interesting, thank you very much for the information!

[Qrt.S]

Unfortunately it is not clear at all, rather more confusing.
The question is not the box's age, but the marks. AG2012 states that the maker's mark CE would be Carl Ernst. However, Carl Ernst was active around 1800-1849/50 in St.P. (is it really CE or what?). The assayer's initials seem to be AM and that could be either assayer Aleksandr Mitin or but also Aleksandr Mor (Moor) in St.P. Mitin or Mor Makes no difference, but what does, is that Mitin assayed 1852-1877 and Mor (Moor) around 1831-1867. The assaying years for both are a bit unclear, but as said Carl Ernst was active from 1800 to about 1849/50!!! Moreover, if you look closely at the maker's mark CE, you will find that the shield appears to be more or less oval while Carl Ernst shield had a more square shape. P#1522 and Bäcksbacka #731. In addition, who says that the letters CE are Latin letters? They could as well be Cyrillic, but??
Another thing that caught my eyes is the supposed town mark for St. Petersburg. Such a round town mark was used around 1826-1876.

The connection to Nicholls & Plinke (1829-98) and the box you can forget as AG2012 also mentioned. Moreover, N&P had a lot of subcontractors. I didn't either find this "CE" among them.

What is also "strange" about the marks is that they are so badly punched. You may wonder why????
In those day all detachable parts should carry marks. You mention that only the other half of the box is marked. Interesting that too!

What if you provide us with new better and sharp Close-ups of all marks and maybe we could get a bit further in this rather interesting case. I would appreciate that. Until then I wouldn't draw too hasty conclusions of anything!

[AG2012]

I took this sentence very seriously as a proof of reliable provenance:

The ambassador was my great-great-grandfather, with lots of family papers of his time as both a foreign minister and ambassador in Russia.

Otherwise, I would be very suspicious having in mind poorly struck marks.
Indeed, CE could be in both alphabets.
As far as I can see both halves of the box are marked.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

Exactly, I am always suspicious when things seems to be too good. and especially due to the poorly struck marks, not to talk about the out of focus photos. I'm unable to see what the smudgy marks really show.

I tried to enhance the marks but unfortunately with poor result, Not enough resolution...

I hope that new pictures will be provided by rshroom in order to settle this interesting case case :-))).

[Mart]

Alexander Mor is the owner of the brands "AM" in St. Petersburg 1851-1866.
You can not even mean Alexander Mitin in connection with the brands "AM".

[Qrt.S]

#Mart

OK, if you say so. This assayer Mitin versus Mor case has always been a mess. Different sources inform "conflicting" information.
Ivanov states:
Aleksandr Yakolevich Moor/Mor assayer in St. Petersburg 1831, 1850-1867 (in Tobolsk1845-49)
Aleksandr Nikolaievich Mitin assayer in St. Petersburg 1842-1867

Bäcksbacka states:
Aleksander Mitin in St. Petersburg 1852-1877.
Nothing regarding Mor.

Postnikova states:
Aleksandr Mitin in St Petersburg 1842-1877
Aleksandr Mor in Tobolsk 1845-1852 (nothing in St.P)


Now you are presenting a fourth alternative for Mor ST.P 1851-1866

This is a complete mess!!!!
If you know what is the truth. I would really appreciate if you told it here.
Thank you in advance.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry forgot to ask the following:
Bäcksbacka shows AM soot marks for Mitin 1852-1877 (p.23) and a bit different nameless soot marks AM (p. 24) 1852-1876. My question is, who is that?

[Mart]

1. It is very difficult to see the brand "AM" in St. Petersburg except 1851-1867. (plus/minus a few months)
2. Junior probirer Mitin really worked in the 1840s in St. Petersburg, but at that time the brand "DT" Tverskoy is on the products. Mitin was very ill and I believe that he died in the period 1848-1856.
3. Alexander Mor really worked in Tobolsk until 1849, and then came to St. Petersburg. He took the position of junior probirer.

[Qrt.S]

#Mart
Sorry, but your answer doesn't answer my question regarding the working periods of both (years!) so I repeat it:

Please tell in what years Mitin assayed and in what Mor in St Petersburg?
The Tverskoy period is known but the Mitin/Mor period is still a mess!

Thank you in advance!

PS. I can show AM soot marks 1852-1877 and another different AM set 1852-1876. I don't know who is who, but the first set is claimed to be Mitin's, but is it? The latter set is nameless. Please verify.
Thank you.

[Mart]

#Mart
Sorry, but your answer doesn't answer my question regarding the working periods of both (years!) so I repeat it:
Please tell in what years Mitin assayed and in what Mor in St Petersburg?
The Tverskoy period is known but the Mitin/Mor period is still a mess!

I answered earlier:
"Alexander Mor is the owner of the brands "AM" in St. Petersburg 1851-1866.
You can not even mean Alexander Mitin in connection with the brands "AM"...."
The brands "AM" belong to Alexander Mor, not Mitin. I am not sure that you have seen these "AM" stamps except for the period 1851-1866.
Earlier I also wrote:
"...Junior probirer Mitin really worked in the 1840s in St. Petersburg, but at that time the brand "ДТ" Tverskoy is on the products. Mitin was very ill and I believe that he died in the period 1848-1856...."
I really don't know what to add here....Mitin really worked as a junior probirer in the 1840s, but during this period there are no brands of him, but there are brands of "DT" Tversky.
You can forget about the "AM" brands that could belong to Mitin.
If suddenly the brands "AM" appear before 1849, then it will be possible to remember him))).

[Qrt.S]

Yes I read it. OK it is Moor, but you didn't answer regarding the working years, please reread what I wrote and asked above. Look especially also at the ending the years; 1876 and 1877. Want to see the soot marks 1852-1856? I have them all. Moor must have worked longer than to 1866 only (about 10-11 years). Nothing before 1849.

PS. I can show AM soot marks 1852-1877 and another different AM set 1852-1876. I don't know who is who, but the first set is claimed to be Mitin's, but is it? The latter set is nameless. Please verify.
Thank you.

[Mart]

I have already written several times when the brands "AM" of Alexander Mor are found in St. Petersburg.
If you have such brands after 1866, then please show me.
You just need to be sure that the numbers in the stamp of the year are read correctly.

[Qrt.S]

Yes I have read what you have written but I would appreciate that you read my answer my questions too and not only repeat yourself not answering me what I'm asking for. I send the picture soon of AM marks soon!

[Mart]

I realized that this is your joke!)))
I have written several times to whom the brands "AM" belong in St. Petersburg and in what period they can be found.
If you have the brand "AM" in another period, then just show them and we will find out what the mistake is.
I just don't understand what else I need to answer.