Many thanks.
Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
Can anyone tell me more about this icon, please? I think it is from Moscow, from the mark, but after much research it seems like the maker's mark is a vyaz letter used in iconography, or possibly a combination of Cyrillic letters. Is this a monastery mark? Or is it simply another tourist piece? I've inherited it and don't have the back story.
Many thanks.
Many thanks.
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
Thank you to the 319 people who have looked at this post. I'm just amazed that so far no one has been able to decipher it!
Where else can I turn for help?
Where else can I turn for help?
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
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Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
That's strange, I can see them my end. Trying again:AG2012 wrote:Your images are not showing. Error message.
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
Hello! This is the brand of the Moscow silversmith "ФМ" ("FM"). The date is approximately 1896-1898.
It's hard to determine the name correctly, but I think it's Fyodor Mnev, or Fyodor Maximov.
It's hard to determine the name correctly, but I think it's Fyodor Mnev, or Fyodor Maximov.
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
Yes, the second letter is an old Slavonic M used some times on icons. BUT, Fyodor Mnev???? Source please. In addition, Fyodor Maksimov's known punches in Moscow were ФМ and Ф·М in a square shield. He was active in Moscow 1823-1862 (too early compared with the town mark on the icon). This mark (St. George and 84) was used 1882-1898. That limits the icon's manufacturing year but also excludes F. Maksimov as the maker/master!
The icons name is Kazanskaya. Look it up. It is an interesting story.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Kazan )
The icons name is Kazanskaya. Look it up. It is an interesting story.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Kazan )
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
1. The source is "All Moscow", an address and reference book. 1903-1908.
2. «…but also excludes F. Maksimov as the maker/master!»
Are you really sure that there cannot be another master with such surname in later years? Source, please! If you don't have such information, then your words are very strange. So you've decided that I'm writing fairy tales here?)))))))
3. «….Fyodor Maksimov's known punches in Moscow were ФМ and Ф•М in a square shield. He was active in Moscow 1823-1862…»
Unfortunately, I have no sources about the silversmith F.Maximov in the years you have given. Especially about the shape of the punch, which the silversmith could change at least every year.
4. «… This mark (St. George and 84) was used 1882-1898….»
That's really true!...but I said earlier, not about the years when it was used, but about the years when I met the punch «ФМ» of this type.
2. «…but also excludes F. Maksimov as the maker/master!»
Are you really sure that there cannot be another master with such surname in later years? Source, please! If you don't have such information, then your words are very strange. So you've decided that I'm writing fairy tales here?)))))))
3. «….Fyodor Maksimov's known punches in Moscow were ФМ and Ф•М in a square shield. He was active in Moscow 1823-1862…»
Unfortunately, I have no sources about the silversmith F.Maximov in the years you have given. Especially about the shape of the punch, which the silversmith could change at least every year.
4. «… This mark (St. George and 84) was used 1882-1898….»
That's really true!...but I said earlier, not about the years when it was used, but about the years when I met the punch «ФМ» of this type.
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
No, you are not writing fairy tales, but you are jumping into too hasty conclusions based on vague information and sources.
FYI!
1.The mark is not FM but F"M" and that is not necessarily the same thing!
2. Address books are not 100% reliable sources and have not much to do with silver marks! They are ADDRESS books!
3. Fyodor Maksimov is not an uncommon name in Russia.
4. The marks/info I referred too can be found in Postnikova as #2961 and in Ivanov #2579
5. The marks you show are from an earlier period than the icon's marks. What is your point?
- the mark from 1847 has an oval frame, so ????
- the lower mark from 1864 has nothing to do with this case.
- if you don't have a source, it doesn't mean that there is none!
6. I believe you ought to know that the same mark could not according to the law be used by different masters in the same town during the same period!
7. Yes punches were worn, broken and renewed, but the same punch could still as said above not be used by different masters!
8. You are completely avoiding to answer who is Fyodor Mnev? I cannot find him anywhere. Where from is your info?
9. In addition:
- big archives were burn as unnecessary in St. Petersburg around 1873
- the revolution and (Word) wars destroyed unfortunately quite a lot too.
A general problem regarding imperial Russian silver marks is that too much material has been as said lost, burn etc. that conclusions cannot be made too easily and not from one source only.
Nothing more to say about this case.
FYI!
1.The mark is not FM but F"M" and that is not necessarily the same thing!
2. Address books are not 100% reliable sources and have not much to do with silver marks! They are ADDRESS books!
3. Fyodor Maksimov is not an uncommon name in Russia.
4. The marks/info I referred too can be found in Postnikova as #2961 and in Ivanov #2579
5. The marks you show are from an earlier period than the icon's marks. What is your point?
- the mark from 1847 has an oval frame, so ????
- the lower mark from 1864 has nothing to do with this case.
- if you don't have a source, it doesn't mean that there is none!
6. I believe you ought to know that the same mark could not according to the law be used by different masters in the same town during the same period!
7. Yes punches were worn, broken and renewed, but the same punch could still as said above not be used by different masters!
8. You are completely avoiding to answer who is Fyodor Mnev? I cannot find him anywhere. Where from is your info?
9. In addition:
- big archives were burn as unnecessary in St. Petersburg around 1873
- the revolution and (Word) wars destroyed unfortunately quite a lot too.
A general problem regarding imperial Russian silver marks is that too much material has been as said lost, burn etc. that conclusions cannot be made too easily and not from one source only.
Nothing more to say about this case.
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
«... vague information and sources» ....
Is that what you call my information from an official source that a person had a silver workshop? It's your own business. And what sources are given in the books of PL and Ivanov?
1. There is a brand of ФМ, not Ф"М".
2. Address books give a lot of information for determining silversmiths. In the course of research, it is checked as much as possible. More complete information about the residents and their professions appeared only at the beginning of the 20th century. Last week I managed to install 4 previously unknown masters and the address books helped me.
…
4. I looked. I do not see in your sources information about a particular silversmith from this topic.
5. I showed you two "ФМ" stamps earlier, so that it would be clear that the shape of the stamp and the time of the master's work are not indicated correctly there. The master from the PL book has nothing to do with the masters I found.
…
8. If you can't find information about Fedor Mnev, then I'm sorry. I succeeded. I see no reason why I should show you all the sources by which I was able to identify the masters. Sometimes the study may contain links to 30-40 sources. I don't even have time for this. This is my personal exclusive information, which has not been published anywhere yet. Maybe I'm writing my reference book?))) I am a kind person and by F.Maximov showed you some of the information. I'm not forcing you to accept it. We are all free people. you can ignore my opinion, and read PL. It's only your choice.
F.Mnev was the owner of (ризочеканная) workshop, but I have to make sure that he worked exactly with silver. I don't have enough time and reason right now.
9. You are right. Many archives have been badly damaged, but there is a lot of information there that is just waiting for its time. I have no financial opportunity to work directly in the archives themselves. Digitized information from archives helps, but it is not enough. I have to think more and look for different versions))). It is even useful!
All the best!
Is that what you call my information from an official source that a person had a silver workshop? It's your own business. And what sources are given in the books of PL and Ivanov?
1. There is a brand of ФМ, not Ф"М".
2. Address books give a lot of information for determining silversmiths. In the course of research, it is checked as much as possible. More complete information about the residents and their professions appeared only at the beginning of the 20th century. Last week I managed to install 4 previously unknown masters and the address books helped me.
…
4. I looked. I do not see in your sources information about a particular silversmith from this topic.
5. I showed you two "ФМ" stamps earlier, so that it would be clear that the shape of the stamp and the time of the master's work are not indicated correctly there. The master from the PL book has nothing to do with the masters I found.
…
8. If you can't find information about Fedor Mnev, then I'm sorry. I succeeded. I see no reason why I should show you all the sources by which I was able to identify the masters. Sometimes the study may contain links to 30-40 sources. I don't even have time for this. This is my personal exclusive information, which has not been published anywhere yet. Maybe I'm writing my reference book?))) I am a kind person and by F.Maximov showed you some of the information. I'm not forcing you to accept it. We are all free people. you can ignore my opinion, and read PL. It's only your choice.
F.Mnev was the owner of (ризочеканная) workshop, but I have to make sure that he worked exactly with silver. I don't have enough time and reason right now.
9. You are right. Many archives have been badly damaged, but there is a lot of information there that is just waiting for its time. I have no financial opportunity to work directly in the archives themselves. Digitized information from archives helps, but it is not enough. I have to think more and look for different versions))). It is even useful!
All the best!
Re: Russian Mary of Kazan Silver Icon
Thank you to Mart and Qrt.S for your replies.
I'm sorry I've been so slow to respond, I've been bogged down in work.
It is all really helpful and interesting, and I can quite understand that some of it is hard to say for sure when archives and historical sources get destroyed. It's a shame you both seemed to get cross with each other over it. Maybe tone of voice has been lost in translation? I thought forums were friendly places to exchange information. (I'm new though, so what do I know?)
Anyway, it's fascinating to discover how old it might be and which part of the world it's from. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
Have good day.
I'm sorry I've been so slow to respond, I've been bogged down in work.
It is all really helpful and interesting, and I can quite understand that some of it is hard to say for sure when archives and historical sources get destroyed. It's a shame you both seemed to get cross with each other over it. Maybe tone of voice has been lost in translation? I thought forums were friendly places to exchange information. (I'm new though, so what do I know?)
Anyway, it's fascinating to discover how old it might be and which part of the world it's from. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
Have good day.