A Danish sugar sifter

[amena]

I found this Danish sugar sifter.





Hallmarks are partial and rather worn, however it seems to recognize without doubt the mark of the assay master Simon Groth (1863-1904). I have not found a precise match for the silversmith's mark P dot H,upside down in the picture.
Could it be Peter Hertz? which however is indicated P dot H dot.
The object looks a little older than 1893 to me, but I'm not so sure.
Any opinion will be very welcome.
Thanks for the attention
Amena

[Qrt.S]

It could be (maybe) Peter Hertz. He was born 1810, became master 1835 and passed away 1885. The Guardein Simon Groth assayed in Copenhagen 1863-1904. What you can see from the poorly struck/worn town mark is that it is most likely from the period of 1859-69, but???

What caught my eyes was that you mention that "the silversmith's upside-down mark would be P dot H dot...why so? The mark is more likely P.H as Hertz also punched, BUT in an oval frame! However, Hertz also punched P.HERTZ and PH without a dot and in a square frame! Anyway, my source tells me that Hertz made (tea) spoons and sugar sifters among other things (tea pots...).
Unfortunately Danish silver makerś marks are only registered (known) to about 40-50% therefore there are quite a lot of unknown Danish makers and marks... I tried my very best, but.... Anyway, as many times stated before, punches were, worn, broken and renewed!
This is again an example and my opinion that silver marks is not an exact science!
Summa Summarum, let's blame Hertz for this :-))))

[amena]

Hi Qrt.S
Thanks for your views and information.
I'm actually quite a newbie to Danish silver and my only source was the 925-1000.com page

On that page Peter Hertz's is described as P dot H dot, while in effect, on the sugar sifter the second dot is missing.
Also, again from the information on that page, I seemed to understand that he had started working since 1893, but I probably misunderstood.
If, as you tell me, he started working earlier, then my feeling that the object is prior to 1893 may be correct.
Or, of course, it can be the work of any other unknown silversmith with the initials P H.
Best regards
Amena

[dognose]

See also: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=20661&p=94282&hilit=hertz#p94282

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Well Amena, the problem with such pages showing initials only is that the FRAME (or no frame) is always of upmost importance regarding many makers' marks and should if possible be shown or at least mentioned! In addition use the pages you refer to as indicating info only. Always check from as many as possible other sources too. (I don't think that this i something new for you!)
Yes, it can be a work of an unknown maker! For that reason I used a lot of question marks and a "maybe" in my input. I'm not sure at all myself. As mentioned silver marks is not an exact science! To my knowledge there are quite a lot of Danish makers punching PH and in a square or oval or whatever frame but the dot(s) are missing in all of them except for the mentioned one.
Buona giornata Amena :-))))
Qrt.S

PS. Danish silver is sometimes difficult due the mentioned reason and especially for the lack of many (un)known marks/makers not registered/mentioned in the reference sources.

[amena]

Always check from as many as possible other sources too. (I don't think that this i something new for you!)

Of course this is not something new to me, but I believe it is impossible for me to become an expert on silver around the world.
Luckily in this forum, there are experts from each specific area who kindly lend you a hand.
Thanks and regards
Amena