French Silver or Silverplate

[MGArgent]

Hi Forum,

Apologies for censoring the images, but I am showing an item that I might be interested in purchasing.

There is an item being offered as silverplate, but what interests me about this item is that the maker's mark is in a lozenge which I understand should only be used to mark solid silver pieces.

The seller is an antiques dealer that seems to specialize in French silver, so one would assume they are quite knowledgeable and I should probably believe them when they say it's silverplate.

They show a close up image of what they describe as silverplate wearing through (see image) and there is no Minerve punch as far as I can tell.

Looking for the forum's opinion on whether this item is more likely to be solid silver or silverplate. I am hesitant to take the risk and buy it because the price is quite expensive for silverplate.

Some possibilities

1. It is silverplated and was accidentally marked with the wrong maker's punch (lozenge instead of square)
   • The maker has produced pieces in both silver and silverplate
2. This is a silverplated fake/forgery
3. It is solid silver
   • The Minerve is worn/hard to find
   • The silverplate "wear" is actually acid/salt etching or some other wear

[AG2012]

Hi,
I suppose you are buying online, meaning you cannot examine the piece, i.e. search for Minerva.
The rule of thumb; no Minerva, no silver, unless you want to gamble.
Everything else mentioned in the post is circumstantial, not direct evidence.
Regards

[MGArgent]

Hi AG2012, I appreciate your comments that the lozenge shaped maker mark cannot be relied on with certainty when the Minerva is absent.

You are correct that I would be buying online and would not be able to inspect for the Minerva.

I was/am considering taking the gamble if the balance of probability is in my favour.

I did take the gamble once before and it worked out:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=56684&hilit=granvigne

One important difference is that the previous purchase was from a casual online seller from the U.S. who was not familiar with French silver, and when it arrived I was able to locate the Minerva.

The current item I am looking at is from a profesional dealer who has probably inspected thoroughly for a Minerva.

[MGArgent]

Well as AG2012 mentioned, it seems that I was under the false impression that all French silver marked with a lozenge shaped maker's mark would be either .800 or .950 silver.

After a long search I came across a pair of silver-plated brass candelabras made by Cardeilhac which are marked with a lozenge shaped maker's mark (probably Earnest Cardeilhac).

In this case he seems to have used his lozenge shaped maker's mark interchangeably between solid silver and silver-plated items.

For comparison I show a similar pair of solid silver candelabras by Earnest Cardeilac that have been marked with a lozenge shaped punch alongside a Minerve punch.

After looking at images of hundreds of French marks, this is the one exception I have come across so it seems to be uncommon, but proof that the lozenge shaped maker's mark cannot be relied upon to indicate solid silver on French pieces.

Silver-plated brass candelabras: EC punch in lozenge without Minerve









Solid silver candelabras: EC punch in lozenge with Minerve

[JayT]

Yes, quite right, as the names of the marks indicate. The Minerva head is the silver standard mark (poinçon de titre) for items made after 1838, and the mark in a lozenge-shaped reserve is the maker’s mark (poinçon de maître) for objects made after 1797. The maker’s mark alone is no indication of the silver standard of an item. A few silverplate manufacturers kind of waffle on the shape of the maker’s mark - notably Christofle - to give the impression at first glance that an item is silver, not silver plated.
Regards.

[MGArgent]

Thank you for the follow up, this is useful and I will definitely be more cautious going forward. Luckily I did not purchase the silverplated item offered by the dealer.

The reason this topic is of interest to me is because I have occasionally come across pieces on the well known online auction site that are listed as "silver-plated" which show a lozenge shaped maker mark and where the Minerve is not visible in the listing photos.

As mention earlier in the thread, I had taken the risk once before and purchased a 2-piece French 0.950 silver teaset for a reasonable price, with only being able to see the lozenge mark in the listing photos (the Minerve was located after it arrived).

As we speak, I have a 5-piece French teaset in transit that I again purchased with only being able to see the lozenge marks in the listing photos. As you can imagine after finding out this new information I now have my fingers crossed that this 2nd set will work out as well haha! :) If it is silver, I am hoping to clarify a few questions about the maker that I will post in the French section.

[oel]

Hi, perhaps there are a few exceptions, if made for export no Minerva's head. Sterling silver tea caddy made by Odiot.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17728&p=40278&hilit ... oel#p40278

Enjoy the weekend.

Regards,

Peter.