Russian serving spoons 1885

[JanGroen]

Good day
I found 2 serving spoons on the market today. I bought them as plated spoons but believe it's Russian.
They are around 21cm long.
The first one got a pin prick design and a monogram. I do not see a maker mark and the essay mark is bit damaged. I think the date is 1885. Any help will be welcome.
Thank you
Jannie

[Qrt.S]

Because there is no maker's mark, the spoon is imported and not Russian made. Where from it is imported is a good question, likely from Germany, but....?

[JanGroen]

Because there is no maker's mark, the spoon is imported and not Russian made. Where from it is imported is a good question, likely from Germany, but....?

Thank you for your quick reply. It's interesting that it doesn't have any German marks, but then again it's a few years before Germany started to use the Cresent moon mark.
I looked at the potential eassayers on the site and found that it could be Danil Danilovich Lesenko from Riga.
Groete
Jannie

[Qrt.S]

The hallmark is a smudge but could show Riga's town mark and the assayer could also well be Daniel Lesenko in Riga. He assayed there 1880-1886. Riga was known as an importing town. The Russian importers/goldsmiths sometimes demanded that the imported silver goods should not carry any marks. Then they struck their own mark/logo beside the assay office's mark having it to look like it would be "Russian made".

[Mart]

I think these are not real marks, fake ones.

[JanGroen]

I think these are not real marks, fake ones.

Interesting, why would anyone put fake marks onto a very plain, imported spoon and leave out the makers mark? I can't find any signs that marks have been removed so the fake marks must obviously be on top of them.
Thank you for your help
Jannie

[Mart]

Fake brands could have been applied many years ago in order to try to make the spoon legal and not pay the duty.

[Qrt.S]

@JeanGroen

...why would anyone put fake marks onto a very plain, imported spoon and leave out the makers mark?

Please reread what I wrote 14.1 at 6:22pm. It answers your question! Moreover, regarding import from especially Germany, it was a rather common procedure for mentioned reasons.

There are no other marks neither removed nor over over-struck if it is a fake, which is also an alternative as Mark indicated.
Tricky case!

[JanGroen]

@JeanGroen

...why would anyone put fake marks onto a very plain, imported spoon and leave out the makers mark?

Please reread what I wrote 14.1 at 6:22pm. It answers your question! Moreover, regarding import from especially Germany, it was a rather common procedure for mentioned reasons.

There are no other marks neither removed nor over over-struck if it is a fake, which is also an alternative as Mark indicated.
Tricky case!

Thanks, I understand it better now. It could be an imported spoon with real Russian marks done in 1885 or it could be an imported spoon with fake marks applied later to make it legal. The marks were not necessarily put onto it to make it more valuable like modern fakes.
Jannie

[Qrt.S]

Actually, you can read in your other thread at 6.32 PM what Mart tells about the other mark. The mark "П.Чуксанов" is NOT a master's/maker's punch but a retailer's/store's "logo". That is why some Russian importers sometimes "demanded" imported objects not to carry any marks. They wanted to give the interested customer the impression that the imported object was made in Russia! There is a huge difference between what is an official silver punch/mark and what is a "logo mark". Both can be found on silver objects with Russian markings. Sometimes it is rather difficult to know which one is what if you have two "maker's marks" on an object.
Try this link it his will help you to better understand Russian marks: https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html

[Qrt.S]

#Jeangroven
.

...or it could be an imported spoon with fake marks applied later to make it legal. The marks were not necessarily put onto it to make it more valuable like modern fakes.

Correct! It was forbidden by law to put/sell unmarked silver on the Russian market. Genuine Russian silver objects carry almost always the assaying office's markings and the marker's mark. There are some seldom seen unmarked exceptions, but that is another story (certain instruments, products made for the court/czar's family...). Rather unlike that you will see such objects here.

[Mart]

There is no big problem to distinguish the brand of the seller and the brand of the silversmith. In most cases, the brand of the seller contains the full surname, and the silversmith only his initials.
An imported legal product once in Russia received a special customs stamp for imported products.
Perhaps your spoon was made in Russia in the 19th century, but illegally and contains a fake brand. You can check the silver sample.