Fraget candlestick

[huszas76]

Dear everybody!
I bought a pair of candlesticks. I tested, it is silver, but unfortunately I've never seen this mark before.
I think I know the maker, Jósef Fraget from Warsawa (as the hallmark shows too) but very unusual.
I know, but I know too that this part of Poland was under russian rule from 1830. (I'm little unsure about the exact date).
The marks are very unusual for me,the Russian marks I know from this era are completely different. Has anyone seen a signal with such contours and characters? Is it rare, no one knows similar, or it is fake marks?
The style of the candlesticks is ok, tipical.
Anyone has any suggests?


Thank you for your help!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[blakstone]

Although partitioned to Russian after the Congress of Vienna in 1815, Warsaw didn't start using Russian Imperial marks until 1852. The marks here look generally consistent with marks used in Warsaw ca. 1810-1850. I have seen the fineness in both lothige and zolotniki (as here); the former is far more common, though, and the latter rarer and usually after the establishment of the Congress Kingdom of Poland as an Absolute Monarchy of the Russian Empire in 1832.

[huszas76]

Dear Blakstone!
Thank you for your answer!
This is comforting. I've never seen it like this before. For example, I have only seen the inscription Varsovie in flowing writing.
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Ubaranda]

Hi Krisztián!
This scan is from the book Bołdok Slavomir “Znaki srebra do lat 40 dwudziestego wieku w Polsce. (Zawiera znaki 74 miast – ośrodków złotniczych)”. Warszawa, 2005, Agencja Wyd. „Mako Press”.
Regards. Alex.

[Mart]

Hello! This may be a very rare Fraget mark, but it may be a fantasy. I don't have anything to compare it to. The "84" stamp is of course not genuine. It simply looks like a stylization of the Russian mark. The rooster could be a trademark sign or also a stylization of the brands of France (the Fraget brothers were French). The company actually made silverware in its early days.

[Qrt.S]

Fake marks. Like Marks also points out "rare mark....."Ubaranda shows a genuine mark.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry, minor typo. Fingers shriveled :-(. Should read ...Mart points ...)

[huszas76]

First of all thank you for all respons!

Fake marks. Like Marks also points out "rare mark....."Ubaranda shows a genuine mark.

Dear Qrt.S! So you completely rule out the possibility that it could be original?
Are you 100% sure they are fake marks?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just trying to think logically using my own experiences.
I'm researching Hungarian antique hallmarks, and I've also been lucky enough to find many fakes. (Not just hungarians)
I have two experiences. One is when they try to fake the city hallmark as best as possible and invent an unknown monogram next to it.
The other is that they fake the object of the known master and strive to make the copy as successful as possible.
It doesn't seem logical to me that they are creating a completely unknown version of the Fraget signals described by Ubaranda (and apparently also known by them).
As I usually see here on the forum, they also try to come up with a similar, rather than a clearly different, version for the Russian marks.
Do you often find that counterfeiters try to invent something new, rather than copy a well-known one?
Thank you for your answer!
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Qrt.S]

#huszas76
This is a very strange marking. In my rather large library I cannot find these marks. Moreover, the whole "row of marks" is insufficient. Here a few thoughts: The Russian fineness mark has a round shield, the figures' font is odd, who is the assayer, the spelling of "Warszawa" that is Polish, here Varsovie !? The rooster's shield, etc, etc.
I will not start to discuss further oddities more than stating that usually fakers do not bother too much to investigate how a correct row of marks looks like and when it was used. Unfortunately there are a huge variety of potential buyers that know very little about silver marks. In their eyes this might look OK, in my eyes it doesn't. Something is not in place here. Anyway, this is my personal opinion only. "Once I thought I made a mistake, but I was wrong" ;-))))))) Nothing more to add.

[oel]

Hi Krisztián,
Józef Fraget was a French industrialist who settled in Poland. He studied at polytechnic institutes in Paris and Berlin. Brought to Warsaw in 1824 by the then Minister of the Interior Tadeusz Mostowski, he opened the first plated goods factory in Poland, initially small, and from 1844 - his own factory at 16 Elektoralna Street. Constantly modernising the production (among other things, he arranged a laboratory for galvanic silver plating and gilding of metal products), he placed the factory among the best in Europe. Thanks to their perfection and aesthetic values, Fraget's platters were highly valued in the whole Kingdom of Poland and in Russia. After Fraget's death, the factory was run by his son Julian (1841-1906).
Marks of silver plate Fraget
https://www.ascasonline.org/windowAGOS99.html


​Yes, you are right to question if these are fake Jósef Fraget​ marks. Has Fraget mark ever been encountered as a falsification?
Jósef Fraget​ wytwórnia platerów​ I wyrobów ze srebra​/plating factory​ and silver products​. Online ​we often come across his silver-plated objects and plater's mark, but​ online I cannot find objects made by him from solid silver and marked with his silver​ maker's marks.​ So perhaps your silver Fraget candlestiscks are a rare find.
Jósef Fraget​ was a Frenchman and may have used in his early years in Poland A Varsovie instea​d of ​ in Warszawa. He probably did not want to deny his origins, and French was still widely used by the elite at the time. Indeed the rooster may be a reference to his French origins, but may we conclude that he used a rooster in a shield in his early years in Poland and later one in an oval.
Blakstone, one of our finest contributor, wrote Warsaw didn't start using Russian Imperial marks until 1852. The marks here look generally consistent with marks used in Warsaw ca. 1810-1850. I have seen the fineness in both lothige and zolotniki (as here); the former is far more common, though, and the latter rarer and usually after the establishment of the Congress Kingdom of Poland as an Absolute Monarchy of the Russian Empire in 1832..​
We doubt this or what?

It would be nice if someone could show us some images of Polish silver items made and marked by Fraget!

Peter.

[RoderykWLK]

In my opinion these are false marks. Before 1851 there would have been a 12 mark. After 1851 there would have been an assay office mark.

[RoderykWLK]

Fraget's original signs