Is this box from 1595?

[gsmoggy]

Hello Members

Would like opinions and thoughts re this small box.looks like may have been gilded all over.
sorry the images are not that detailed.



Seller says from circa 1595.I have not seen marks.
Intaglio may be early ,not sure if original to box,interested in opinions.

Regards Guido.

[JayT]

Hello Guido
Based on the photos alone, I don’t see any Renaissance design elements on this box. The 2 appliqués on either side of the intaglio have curves and counter-curves that look more rococo in style, and this design is echoed in the frieze around the circumference. The box is giving 18th C rather than 16th C vibes.

As you say, the intaglio could pre-date the box.

Marks would help you to determine age.

Good luck in your research!

Regards.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Jayt
Many thanks for reply and comments,I agree with you re design ,not really sure what 1595 silver boxes look like?
Not sure if you noticed some solder repair work on lower edge of frame holding intaglio.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Has anyone got images of boxes from this period,and with hallmarks of Zwickue, Saxony Germany? I feel seller has spelling wrong on Zwickue (should be Zwickau) what do we know about the history of that city mark?

As members may know ,I collect interesting small boxes,looking into this box is a learning and educational exercise for me.

I will look in some of my books to see if I can find boxes of a similar period.

Regards Guido.

[JayT]

Hello Guido
Yes, I see the repair on the frame, now that you point it out.

The boxes I’ve seen in museum collections from the 16th C are casket form.

However, my experience with boxes is very limited, so I bow to your knowledge of this subject.

Regards.

[gsmoggy]

Thanks Jayt

not easy to understand this box for me,I do not want to bother seller,to look into mark,not sure if he has correct date,and mark?
if this style of box was made with the intaglio at that period? I would not think it is the only one in the world.
Very strange to me I cannot find any similar boxes anywhere.

As I said before my gut feeling is that the intaglio may be early ,not sure if the box is the same age.

it seems a very basic box ,for such a fine intaglio.

I have had a look in one of my best silver collectors books "the Albert Collection"Five hundred years of British and European silver , Robin Bulter 2004.
Only few people know who Mr Albert was ,I was told by a silver dealer because his wife is still alive ,his identity has to remain a secret. (do not know why) The entire collection was sold some years ago.
The earliest box in this book is English unmarked 1625, there are no boxes with intaglios.
This box supposed to be 1595 ,rings some alarm bells for me. (I may be wrong) not sure why the repair is there? and has not been repaired better if it is a rare box.

Interested in any thoughts from others ,if it is right it is a very rare box indeed.

Regards Guido.

[amena]

"Such a fine intaglio".
What would be the material of the intaglio?
I don't know if you have other photos of the intaglio. The ones you posted are somewhat blurry, and it's not possible to judge the quality.
I think it is completely normal to ask the seller for images of the marks, if any. There is no reason for the seller to feel bothered about this.
The "in dubio pro reo" principle is followed in the courts.
My experience has led me to adopt the principle
"in dubio contra venditorem"
Just my opinion.
Regards
Amena

[gsmoggy]

Hi Amena
Thanks for comments.
Sorry I do not have any better images of intaglio.
I agree the seller should be happy to give me images of the marks ,I may ask.
I feel a bit uncomfortable asking.
I am still curious what the mark is. What is your feeling about it? I know it is not your area.
strange I have not seen any similar boxes anywhere,is this the only one in the world?

Regards Guido.

[shikiamondo]

Hi Guido,

I agree with the others in this thread.

From my experience, a lot of "one of the kind" antique pieces are quite often Frankensteins, different bits have been put together to forge and imitate as an older and unique piece, hence it is important to ask for details. If the vendor refuses to show all their cards it is a big red flag and caveat emptor.

Kind regards,
Connor

[gsmoggy]

Thanks Connor
For your reply,I agree with you always good to see the marks ,to make correct assessment.
I have managed to get the images of the marks,he was very good about it. (it was only my feeling,that stopped me from asking)

the marks are interesting not sure if these are Hanau marks ,or original early marks?
It looks like the Zwickau mark, The other grape vine mark?does anyone know this mark ?is it the year or maker?
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Looks like the owner maybe correct re description of mark. not sure if there is info on grapevine mark?


I have come across an Article in "Handbook to foreign hallmarks" online.

states- Under Heading Zwickau,

The hallmark in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was "A swan in a circle .
Only two makers marks are known ,one the intersecting "MW" in ellipse ,the "IS" in circle.


I may be wrong after all it may very well be what he says it is.

Regards Guido.

[oel]

Hi Guido see:
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... an#p218580
The French swan mark:
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... an#p218335
Grapes and Swan mark Hanau, unattributed Hanau style pseudo marks, possibly Schleissner.
https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html


Peter.

[gsmoggy]

thanks Peter for your reply.
I do not feel the grape vine mark is the same as the Hanau mark. What do others think?
Is there more info on the French swan mark.
the owner would be very disappionted if this information is correct.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Peter
Your "Swam mark link " seems to be talking about the swan mark in oval ,this Swan mark is in a CIRCLE.
Not the same mark.
read section on bottom of my last post ,seems that mark to me.

[oel]

Hi Guido, will move you to the German section. Theoderich can possibly give more information about the Zwickau swan.

Peter.

[gsmoggy]

Many thanks Peter.
looking forward to the info.
Regards Guido.

[Theoderich]

Theoderich can possibly give more information about the Zwickau swan.

Peter.

Hi Peter

I know no examples of Zwickau hallmarks of this time, but I do not believe that it is from Zwickau.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Theodorich

Many thanks for your reply and comments,
Do you not feel it is the mark of the Zwikau Swan?

I have seen a seen a mark in circle that looks from a Hanau maker,but shape of head and neck are different.(of Swan)

is the swan mark and grape vine on this box recorded ,and in your opinion what is this mark?

Regards Guido.

[oel]

Hi Guido, your grape mark


And the grape mark on a vesta case, also with a swan mark
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... an#p218580

You feel both marks look similar?


Peter.

[gsmoggy]

Thanks Peter
Do we have images of vesta case ?
what period is it from? Any other info ? Very interesting grape vine mark looks the same to me.
Regards Guido.

[oel]

Hi Guido see:
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... an#p218580
The French swan mark:
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... an#p218335
Grapes and Swan mark Hanau, unattributed Hanau style pseudo marks, possibly Schleissner.
https://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_hanau_marks_01.html


Peter.

Guido, use the first link in my quote

Peter.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Peter
thanks for you assistance.
I feel we are going round and round .
was there ever a Zwickau original swan mark in 1595? ?
In one of my earlier posts ,I quoted ,that in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries a SWAN IN CIRCLE was the hallmark for Zwickau.
if this information I found online is correct? Why can we not find this mark anywhere?

Why all the confusion .Is the mark on this box an early Zwickau mark? or a French mark ? or a Hanau Mark?

Is the early Zwickau mark recorded anywhere? very strange we cannot find it.

Regards Guido.